Venture Everywhere Podcast: Kory Kelly with Gabriela Isturiz
Kory Kelly, co-founder and CEO of Legal Karma, chats with Gabriela Isturiz, an LP of Everywhere Ventures and a Partner in The Fund XX on episode 44: Good Legal Karma.
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Episode 44 of Venture Everywhere is hosted by Gabriela Isturiz, General Partner at The Fund XX (a part of Everywhere Ventures), and ex-legaltech founder with two Fortune 500 exits, and now investing in and supporting startups. She interviews Kory Kelly, the co-founder and CEO of Legal Karma, a platform offering estate planning solutions, such as trusts and power of attorney, through financial institutions. Kory shares his journey of founding Legal Karma and its mission to make these services more accessible and affordable. Kory also discusses how the company is revolutionizing legal tech by collaborating with trusted financial institutions to deliver estate planning and other legal services.
In this episode, you will hear:
Legal Karma’s shift from direct-to-consumer to partnering with financial institutions for legal services.
Kory’s motivation to improve access to legal services for marginalized communities.
Aligning with the generational transfer of wealth for impactful growth opportunities.
Strong partnerships and a modular product structure to minimize tech debt.
Future fundraising plans to reach a Series A round by 2026.
The long-term goal to transform how Americans access legal services.
If you liked this episode, please give us a rating wherever you found us. To learn more about our work, visit Everywhere.vc and subscribe to our Founders Everywhere Substack. You can also follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn and Twitter for regular updates and news.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00 Jenny Fielding: Hi and welcome to the Everywhere podcast. We're a global community of founders and operators who've come together to support the next generation of builders. So the premise of the podcast is just that, founders interviewing other founders about the trials and tribulations of building a company. I hope you enjoy the episode.
00:00:20 Gaby: Welcome to the Everywhere Ventures podcast. I'm Gaby Isturiz. I'm a general partner with The Fund XX, which is part of Everywhere Ventures. And in my prior life, I was a serial founder of legal tech companies. We had two exits to Fortune 500. And now I'm enjoying investing and supporting women-led startups.
00:00:43 Gaby: And I'm here with Kory Kelly. Kory is the founder and CEO of Legal Karma, a platform that offers real estate planning solutions, such as trust, will, power of attorneys, through your financial institution. Welcome today, Kory. I'm super excited to be here with you. And how about we get it started, you tell us about yourself, your background, and why you decided to start Legal Karma?
00:01:12 Kory: Yeah, it's great to be here, Gaby. Really enjoyed getting to know you this morning. So my background is a little less interesting. I wish it was something cool. I mean, the truth is I grew up in a really small town in Texas, grew up on a farm, grew up doing farm work, became a university lecturer, didn't love that, just burned out after like a year, broke bad and got into startups.
00:01:37 Kory: I watched a startup here in Austin, raise some money and then lose, was part of that team, joined another team, watched a startup founder, totally take it to acquisition and then got it in my head that this is something I could do myself.
00:01:49 Kory: So I started Legal Karma. I mean, when I think back to 2020, when I first was getting started, I didn't know the difference between an LLC or a C-corp. I had never taken a business class. I didn't know anything about this whole world. But I knew one thing and I knew that I wanted to put an oar in the water to change the way that Americans received access to legal.
00:02:11 Kory: Both me and my business partner grew up LGBTQ, Mauricio also is a first generation American. And so we felt very passionate about changing the direction of legal. And as we dug in, I think we got really resolute on, we didn't want to be another direct-to-consumer legal tech company, and we didn't want to build a direct-to-consumer legal tech company.
00:02:32 Kory: There's so many of them out there. They die on their CACs, they're hard to start. And as we really looked into it, it wasn't about lawyers. I mean, there's an abundance of lawyers. It wasn't about, are there enough direct-to-consumer legal tech options out there? It wasn't about anything of this. It was about how do people access it and what's natural?
00:02:50 Kory: And going to a law firm is really scary. People don't trust attorneys. They perceive it to be expensive. They perceive the nature of the billing method, billing by the hour, to not be something they can afford. It's open-ended and uncertain. And so we really leaned into what we call internally, changing the delivery of legal. And so that really, zooming in on that word delivery, like how do people actually get the access?
00:03:14 Kory: And through a lot of trial and error, we landed on financial institutions and there's a lot of green flags there. People are 80% more likely to trust their community financial institution over an attorney. And we're just getting started with estate planning. And so right now, if you go to legalkarma.io, you'll see, win new revenue by selling wills and trusts to your members or customers. But this is just the beginning.
00:03:37 Kory: The whole vision of Legal Karma is we're going to take the largest markets of direct-to-consumer legal and we're going to run them through financial institutions as a service. So imagine a world where you go to your bank and you could set up your LLC before you open your commercial account or get your loan or get insurance or anything of this nature. You can go to your bank or credit union and you could set up your trust and fund your trust there or protect your family's assets there. It's just so natural.
00:04:02 Kory: It doesn't make sense why it's not there today. And if these other direct-to-consumer legal tech companies can do it lawfully, then there's no reason that financial institutions can't, and just the truth of the matter is no one's ever brought this opportunity to them and we've done that by removing a ton of the barriers to entry.
00:04:17 Kory: So that's a little bit about me and why we started it and what we do. I probably answered a few questions in one there.
00:04:25 Gaby: Yeah. And I love that, Kory. I think it's very innovative. The traditional model is typically, right, I'm going to go to either online or LegalZoom as self-served, or I'm going to have to go to a lawyer.
00:04:39 Gaby: So tell us a little bit about that “aha” moment when you determine probably the direct-to-consumer is not the best path or selling to law firms is not the best path. There is a great opportunity by targeting the financial institution market. So what was that “aha” moment in which you say, okay, cool, there is a wedge here, so let's go for it.
00:05:07 Kory: I think the truth of anybody's overnight success is always the years of failure it took to get there. That is absolutely our truth. The very, very first idea for Legal Karma was law firms spend a ton of cash on SEO. Why can't users get started on products right on their websites? They have to call. What a strange and arbitrary first step.
00:05:30 Kory: Imagine all of the efficiency of a modern software company with the legitimacy and quality of a real attorney behind the wheel. And that was what we wanted to bring to law firms. So through like a doc automation front end/UI service.
00:05:42 Kory: So it was law firms that offered family law could now offer estate planning through our solution. It was kind of, we were going to use the law firms as a channel. Totally failed. We raised money on that. That was our first thing we got financing on.
00:05:54 Kory: And what we learned is you're just going to have to drag lawyers kicking and screaming out of the billable hour model. They just cannot comprehend this. They are not interested in this. It's just so truly against their nature and I think how they were trained.
00:06:08 Kory: So the truth was Legal Karma was about to go out of business. And I had this idea and we had this really cool software. We basically had under the hood, a custom dock automation builder. It's like a legal product building machine. And then it serves it up in a front-end UI.
00:06:24 Kory: And I was like, there has got to be a home for this tool. There is a market access point for this somewhere. And at the time, I call it embedded legal products now. Back then, I was calling it legal as an API. And we tried a few things. We tried it with the first two iterations where estate planning with financial institutions and LLC formations and business products for registered agents.
00:06:46 Kory: And the registered agent play failed. But then the financial institutions’ play took off. And where we got our idea for that was we found this large financial institution in Arizona. They became our first really big customer and success story. And they had a native estate planning program selling wills and trusts to their members and they were making like 5 million a year.
00:07:07 Kory: As far as like, a bank goes, they have 400, 500,000 members, maybe 8 or 10 billion AUM. Not the biggest. And they had a huge revenue stream selling estate planning. And I was like, “How are these people doing this?" I went and got to know them, fell in love with their team, they loved our product and we really quickly became their primary tech provider.
00:07:28 Kory: And I was like, oh, wow, let's take this to every estate planning product team at every financial institution. That's when we realized that no one else was doing this. This one credit union had somehow gotten into the market of selling estate planning and no one else was. And that was the big–
00:07:44 Gaby: Aha.
00:07:44 Kory: “Aha” moment. I was like, I'm going to productize what this team has done and I'm going to take this to every single financial institution that I possibly can. And because we had such a great working relationship with that team, they said, we'll be your champions. And they have been. They took all of our customer referral calls, made us all look really good.
00:08:03 Kory: They were just really smooth to the markets for that first 20 customer signups, which is really, really hard in financial institutions. They really made a smooth go-to-market for us by just being great customers for us. They weren't investors. They had no stake. We had just helped their team out and they loved us for it.
00:08:20 Kory: And they went and sang our praises and they said, if anybody can do it, this team can do it. So this is all real time. This hasn't happened a long time ago. This happened 12 months ago. And since August of last year, we've signed up 20 financial institutions.
00:08:33 Gaby: That is incredible, Kory. Congratulations.
00:08:36 Kory: Thanks. It finally feels like we've caught lightning in a bottle here. We find it hard to keep up with our demo request capacity. These customers are going live. You know, now we're in this place where like, oh, we got to deliver on this. So I feel it's finally, the fun part of the ride is starting here.
00:08:50 Gaby: That is incredible. Kory, I want to go back a little bit to what you were saying, that you find the design partner that really believed, basically the founders yourself, and you find this incredible opportunity to feed your solution into their vision. So what was it like productizing that? So you came from a vision to enable a self-serve services for law firms.
00:09:20 Gaby: All of a sudden, you realize that it's a great opportunity to do that with financial services. How much fine tuning or how much pivoting within the product you guys needed to do to serve a different market?
00:09:36 Kory: I think this is where we actually got really lucky. And because we had built a legal product building tool, it was modular in nature and flexible in nature. And so it was really not a lot of tech debt that was created from this pivot. The product was almost perfect. I mean, there were pain points that we ran into, like we had to go get SOC 2 Type 2 certified and went down the very fun rabbit hole of info security.
00:10:03 Gaby: Yep.
00:10:04 Kory: Things like that we weren't expecting. I really have to give props to our partner. They were amazing for us. They let us interview them. They really pulled the curtain back. They showed us what worked and what didn't work. They gave us a lot of visibility into the culture of the financial institutions, how to sell this?
00:10:18 Kory: It was a fun ride with a partner that still partners with us today, that loved our entrepreneurial spirit and loved the vision that we wanted to bring. And we also made them look good. It was never ever the Legal Karma show or certainly never the Kory show. We won because we made our partner look really good.
00:10:36 Kory: And we were like, hey, look at this amazing program this company has built. And so can you. And that's what we do here. And we want to make you as good as they are. And that story really resonated with the customer base.
00:10:49 Gaby: That's incredible. So you mentioned you have 20 financial institutions today. How many individual users within an average per institution do you guys have?
00:11:00 Kory: That is a good question. I can actually tell you that right now. It's in the tune of thousands. Let me look.
00:11:06 Gaby: Just a ballpark to really understand how you guys are growing.
00:11:11 Kory: Yeah, so these things take a long time to go live. We've had about 5,000 users go through the app so far to date with a total revenue, kind of top of funnel built of about 207,000.
00:11:24 Gaby: Amazing.
00:11:25 Kory: It's really strong for such early days. I mean, these things take a long time to implement. They take a long time to go live. So the whole pitch with Legal Karma is buy this, make more money. So estate planning department as a service. Or you can think of us as like trustandwill.com as a service or LegalZoom as a service in next gen kind of vision for it.
00:11:42 Kory: But the big promise is they win all the revenue. And so they pay us a flat platform fee. There's some overage fees so we can grow with them. But ultimately, our promise is we're going to 4 or 5x your spend with us.
00:11:54 Kory: And so our partners pay off their spend with Legal Karma in their first quarter of being live, which is super cool. And then we get to send like a congratulations. You broke even. Everything else now is yours. Let's lean into this. It just makes a really true and really unique partnership.
00:12:11 Gaby: When you reflect back on this journey, I would like to understand a little bit your fundraising. You mentioned that you started out to fundraise for a product. It almost fell. You… about a year ago, you closed a $2 million seed round. So tell us about that journey, lesson learned, and what can you share with other founders in legal tech or fintech that are starting their journey today?
00:12:43 Kory: That's a thoughtful question. I'm going to answer it with some vulnerability, I think.
00:12:47 Gaby: I love that.
00:12:48 Kory: I think when I first started fundraising was easier. And so, you know, if I fundraised back in like 2021, whenever the glory days of fundraising were happening, that was the first tranche, the tranche of the fund that failed.
00:12:59 Kory: But when I really think back about what made the difference, it was always about the people. I met people that wanted to lean in. And I met people that maybe they didn't understand the business entirely upfront, or they believed in where the business was going to end. But I think they just believed in me and Mau, my business partner.
00:13:19 Kory: And you find the people who are willing to mentor you and tell you what you don't want to hear and your ability to listen to that and follow that. And don't be afraid to compensate them either. People need to be compensated to lean in.
00:13:32 Kory: I was very shy to give out advisor shares, but I feel there is a time to do it. Don't do it for most, but there is a top 1% of people that you meet that are a really good thing to lean into. I think about, in the earliest days, we brought an amazing engineer on, who had just built and sold several companies. Like, find people who have been there and done that.
00:13:54 Kory: And then I think those relationships ultimately led us to meeting Jenny. And I think by the time we crossed paths with Jenny, the founder of Everywhere, we had this amazing team built; we had failed and pivoted.
00:14:08 Kory: And I think all of that impressed Jenny and led her to invest and really saved the company. I mean, that was really the moment that turned the ship around for us. I think back on the story, it's a story of investing in the people. And there's always going to be a point where it doesn't make sense to keep going.
00:14:27 Kory: And I've just really found that the founders that win are the founders that keep going even though it's a bad idea. And I feel like there was, times where I'm like, what am I doing? My opportunity cost right now is so high. I'm so far from my earning potential, but you just have to keep believing in yourself and it paid off for me. There's always the chance that it won't, but it does.
00:14:47 Gaby: I love that. And thank you for sharing that Kory. So Everywhere Ventures were part of your seed round? So in terms of fundraising, what is next for you, guys?
00:14:59 Kory: Well, we just did a priced, so we're about to eclipse a million in ARR, which going from–
00:15:04 Gaby: Congratulations.
00:15:05 Kory: Thank you. Like going from zero to a million in nearly our first year has been a super fun ride. I mean, something that we just had only dreamed of before. So right now we are doing what I call a cleanup round where we're taking in a smaller amount of seed-style capital on a price note because we believe we'll be Series A ready by the end of ‘25.
00:15:25 Kory: So that's the track that we're on now is just eclipsing a million, stand on top of that in this fresh capital to pour gas on the fire, hit that two to three million ARR in the next year and then go for the A in Q1 of ‘26.
00:15:39 Gaby: Amazing. So Kory, you mentioned that part of your vision and your mission, is to provide more access to legal products. What is the big vision and the endgame for you guys’ Legal Karma? I was reading some of the stats and the generational transfer from the silent generation and the baby boomers in the next decade. It's about 16 trillion dollars.
00:16:13 Kory: Yeah.
00:16:14 Gaby: How do you fit into this time?
00:16:19 Kory: It's an interesting question. That rhetoric, which is on our website, that rhetoric is rhetoric that we use to sell this product to the financial institutions. And I believe that that market is the market our customers will win. And that's the sell to the customers is they're buying on that value prop.
00:16:37 Kory: But the North Star for Legal Karma is a little different. Our value prop is I want to change the way that Americans receive legal in the United States. Imagine a world in 2030 where all of a sudden it's normal to perceive, to go to your bank, to get your legal needs met. That's a radical shift from where we are today.
00:16:58 Kory: And I think the legal industry is ripe for disruption and there's a lot of walls that are preventing it. But I think, something, deep-pocketed financial institutions moving the envelope to get to where they can start to sell legal is a really cheeky, but also serious way to make a move and changing the way that legal services can be delivered in the US. That's my North Star.
00:17:26 Gaby: I love that. So what's behind the Legal Karma name?
00:17:30 Kory: The Legal Karma name, so I'm obsessed with language and I'm obsessed with naming. And so as starting a company with no renown and no money, I wanted to pick something that everyone was going to think, I've heard of that before, wow.
00:17:46 Kory: And so what we know about naming is that if you can take brand recognition and cleverly create something new out of another renowned brand, then you will get to ride the back of that brand recognition.
00:17:59 Kory: And so simply I just took LegalZoom and Credit Karma and dropped elements of those names and mushed them together. The amount of times I've gotten on the line and people go, wow, we've heard of Legal Karma. I mean, it is half.
00:18:14 Kory: Almost every time people get on the line and go, oh yeah, we've heard of that. And they go, you're the CEO of Legal Karma? Wow. And I'm just like, you've never heard of this, trust me. But it worked. Obviously, I think about it all the time.
00:18:24 Kory: Over the years now, I've really thought, it's the legal industry is do for a serving of karma. And I think this is a really cool way to disrupt some of the things that I think have been artificial value and taking value out of our economy, candidly.
00:18:38 Kory: So I think there's some of that there. And there's also, I've also thought of the scenario, there's going to be a time where we're going to get sued and someone's going to be like, not for Legal Karma. That's also going to come. So I've been through all the scenarios. It's going to hit me one way or another.
00:18:50 Gaby: I'm sure you will be ready, Kory. Kory, kind of like as we wrap up. One of the things when I was researching Kory Kelly and read your website, one of the things that struck me, it was the clarity of your message.
00:19:07 Gaby: So typically I go to a website and there is so many buzzwords that you cannot even tell what they're doing. Yours is totally the opposite. It's such a plain language and natural. So with your background in human communications and rhetoric, how does it impact your approach to leadership? And I also want to understand, how do you approach messaging as well?
00:19:41 Kory: I love that question. I am so, so, so obsessed with language. That was my study, that was my passion. It goes deep. I think when it comes to leadership, the thing to know about rhetoric and human communication is it's all about motivation.
00:19:58 Kory: And so with anything with my team, with investors, with customers, every message that I author or say is always with an intention of trying to satisfy that motivation or speak to that motivation.
00:20:16 Kory: And what we know about persuasion is that persuasion is incremental. It doesn't happen with one big message. It happens with repetition and simplicity over time. And so how do I approach leadership, how to approach my team? I understand what people want. I figure out what they want and I give it to them. That's just really, boil it down.
00:20:37 Kory: There's the key to leadership and entrepreneurship. Figure out what people want and figure out how to give it to them and watch it change. People are attracted to that. And one of the things I believe in is people want to be the star of the show. I don't need to be the star of the show. I don't care about that. That's not what motivates Kory. And maybe that motivates other CEOs.
00:20:55 Kory: And I think there's a lot of admiration for these mascot CEOs. That's just never gonna be me, but I do love making my team that. And I think that's why my team is so amazing. I mean, we have world-class talent at Legal Karma for how small we are. So I think that's part of it.
00:21:10 Kory: And then the messaging is all about simplicity and repetition and that persuasion is incremental, is probably the best. There's one thing that you take away from how to do messaging, persuasion is incremental, simple repetition over time and always understanding what is their motivation, figure out what they want and give it to them.
00:21:32 Gaby: That is incredible, Kory. So for founders that do not have your background and probably were not as obsessed with language as you are. So what is a good place to get started to simplify the message? Because I truly believe messaging is going to get you ahead in terms of fundraising, sales, marketing, customer acquisition, empathy. So what is a good way for founders to really ease into creating better messaging to achieve better results?
00:22:07 Kory: I have two recommendations that I would, well, first of all, the answer is gonna be read. Then the first thing that I would recommend that any founder that has never taken a really serious writing course, there's this book called Writing Without Bullshit, and it just really, really helps you subtract. And so I make all of my employees read it.
00:22:27 Kory: And the employees that start on day one and the employees who are writing emails to customers, whatever on day 90 are different. I've seen that book over and over and over again. Part of the welcome kit at Legal Karma is they have to read this book. So I believe that if you can write, you can do anything. And so I think that's where I recommend they start.
00:22:45 Kory: The second thing, I think, Everywhere does a really good job at this. Everywhere VC, Scott has a really cool book and tons of articles online about the storytelling entrepreneur. I read it myself. I actually found it to be quite good. And this is my world. And so I thought that he transposed some of the rhetoric and persuasion and storytelling elements into a really consumable kind of metaphor.
00:23:10 Kory: I think he calls like the hourglass metaphor that I thought was really helpful. I would recommend read Writing Without Bullshit. Get your writing right. Most people don't do that. Everybody screws that up and then learn how to be a storyteller. Figure out what they want and give it to them. That's the thing.
00:23:25 Gaby: Very useful. And I'm learning a lot from you, Kory. Thank you for sharing. And I think it's a great segue into the last part of our podcast today, which is the speed round.
00:23:35 Kory: Okay.
00:23:36 Gaby: And so what is a book that you're reading right now or your favorite podcast?
00:23:44 Kory: Okay, I was thinking about this. This is probably not the answer you guys were looking for, but–
00:23:48 Gaby: It doesn't matter. We want to hear from Kory. No filter.
00:23:53 Kory: I love to read fantasy novels. So my family and I have a book club together where me and my siblings and my mom, we all read a book at the same time and we talk about it. And it's always a high fantasy novel.
00:24:05 Kory: So right now we're reading this book called The Priory of the Orange Tree. It's about dragons, but highly recommended. Super cool. It won fantasy novel of the year last year. But that's probably not what you're looking for. If I was going to give a business answer, I'm not reading any business books right now that I would recommend.
00:24:20 Kory: But one thing I am really looking at is Legal Karma is growing from marketing, qualified lead growth because I'm really good at writing and persuasion and the messages that we send out convert. But now we're trying to move into what I'm getting educated on about account based growth.
00:24:34 Kory: So that's where I'm at this juncture of going from seed to A. I'm like, okay, how are we going to increase our revenue by 2 million next year? I'm reading articles on that, but I don't have a book on it yet. So I'm open to recommendations if anybody has one about that.
00:24:47 Gaby: Totally. A little bit more boring than the dragons and oranges. Any favorite podcasts?
00:24:54 Kory: I'm not a big podcaster. I wish I was. There was one that I used to listen to a long time ago called Tribe of Mentors. I think it has kind of a renowned host, but nothing as of late.
00:25:05 Gaby: Totally. And if you can live anywhere in the world for one year, where would that be?
00:25:12 Kory: So I was thinking about this one. I really love living in Austin. I travel all the time. I just lived in Prague for the summer last year. I just did this big trip around Italy. We're laptop workers and so we can work anywhere. So I've been taking advantage of that. But I just have to say, I love coming home to Austin, Texas. I've been here for 12 years.
00:25:31 Kory: But every time I leave and come back, I was just, oh, yeah, this feels right. And so I would say Austin. I would keep my home base here and I love traveling the world and coming back home to Austin.
00:25:44 Gaby: Where are you originally from, Kory?
00:25:46 Kory: Originally, I grew up in a small town in Northeast Texas called Texarkana. It's on the border of Texas, Arkansas and Louisiana, hence the name Texarkana.
00:25:56 Gaby: Good. I keep learning from you. And what is your favorite productivity hack?
00:26:02 Kory: Ditch your task list and make your calendar your to-do list. Anytime I commit to doing something, I put it on my calendar. And sometimes if it's fast, I have a scratch pad where I'm just taking notes. And then at the end of every day, I will look at that and I will synthesize it. And I look at my week and I'm like, when am I actually going to do that? And I put it on my calendar.
00:26:24 Kory: I’ll also have like a 6 AM meet calendar note that's like, hey, do this stuff today and send this email. Like I've made my calendar my source of truth. And I also, when I look at my calendar, I'm like, if this is what's blocked off right now, this is what I am doing.
00:26:35 Gaby: I do the same, I totally agree. If it's not in the calendar, it's not gonna happen.
00:26:39 Kory: Yeah, I found myself with this to-do list, but my calendar was misaligned and I was like “merge.” The other thing I would say is drink lots of water. I know that's something that's overlooked, but staying hydrated really changes the game. And I think it's easy to not do that when you're so stressed.
00:26:56 Gaby: That's interesting. Very interesting. Wasn't expecting that hack. And definitely I need to drink more water. So for our audience, Kory, as we wrap up, where our listeners can find you?
00:27:11 Kory: Probably the best way is on LinkedIn. So you can just search Kory Kelly or Legal Karma on LinkedIn and you can find me really easily there.
00:27:19 Gaby: Perfect. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really enjoyed having you in the podcast today. Thank you, Kory.
00:27:27 Kory: Yeah, the feeling is so mutual. It's great to meet you too, Gaby, and happy to be back anytime.
00:27:32 Scott Hartley: Thanks for joining us and hope you enjoyed today's episode. For those of you listening, you might also be interested to learn more about Everywhere. We're a first-check pre-seed fund that does exactly that, invests everywhere. We're a community of 500 founders and operators, and we've invested in over 250 companies around the globe. Find us at our website, Everywhere.VC, on LinkedIn, and through our regular founder spotlights on Substack. Be sure to subscribe, and we'll catch you on the next episode.
Read more from Kory Kelly in Founders Everywhere.