Venture Everywhere Podcast: Hugh Dixson with Bobby Katoli
Hugh Dixson, co-founder and Executive Chair of Switchboard chats with Bobby Katoli, co-founder and CEO of Ceres Technology on episode 92: On the Supply Chain Switchboard.
In episode 92 of Venture Everywhere, Bobby Katoli, co-founder and CEO of Ceres Technology – an AI-driven logistics intelligence platform that helps businesses anticipate and manage disruptions sits down with Hugh Dixson, Executive Chair of Switchboard, a supply chain integration platform that connects the fragmented systems driving global commerce. Hugh shares his journey from management consulting and Uber operations to founding Switchboard, inspired by his frustration with inefficiencies in freight and logistics. Bobby and Hugh discuss leadership, robust data infrastructure, and how clean, connected information fuels the future of AI-powered supply chains.
In this episode, you will hear:
How Switchboard connects retailers and suppliers through a seamless hub model
Building the “pipes” that move data reliably between disparate enterprise systems
Enabling real-time visibility and collaboration across global supply chains
Eliminating manual errors through automated order and invoice workflows
Switchboard’s vision for open-source supply chain data standards
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TRANSCRIPT
00:00:04 VO: Everywhere Podcast Network.
00:00:14 Jenny Fielding: Hi, and welcome to the Everywhere podcast. We’re a global community of founders and operators who’ve come together to support the next generation of builders. So the premise of the podcast is just that, founders interviewing other founders about the trials and tribulations of building a company. Hope you enjoy the episode.
00:00:33 Bobby: Welcome to the Venture Everywhere podcast. I’m Bobby Katoli. I am the co-founder and CEO of Ceres. What we do is we turn global chaos into clarity. There are a lot of factors outside of your four walls that could impact your business. So think about trying to analyze all of these risks down to your individual SKUs. It becomes a very daunting task. So trying to do that in Excel is just not feasible.
00:00:59 Bobby: What we do, imagine having 10 billion signals over 35,000 categories of risk at your fingertips in a no code platform that enables you to do what-if scenario modeling 95% faster than using Excel and BI tools.
00:01:14 Bobby: Today, I am joined by Hugh Dixson, Executive Chair of Switchboard.
00:01:20 Hugh: Hi, Bobby. It’s very nice to meet you. I’m Hugh Dixson. I’m the CEO and now Executive Chair of Switchboard. We are a supply chain integration platform.
00:01:31 Hugh: Our product connects the various enterprise IT systems in supply chain systems like ERP systems, transport management, inventory management, order management, et cetera. And we connect those and automate the flow of data between those systems.
00:01:44 Bobby: Well, that’s awesome. Looking forward to dig deeper today. Let’s start from the top. Where are you from? Where were you born? Where were you raised?
00:01:52 Hugh: As you can probably tell by listening to me speak, I am natively Australian. I was born and raised in Sydney, Australia, where I’m currently sitting today, where it’s a beautiful spring day. But have been living and working mostly in the US over this year with Switchboard. It’s nice to be back for a bit.
00:02:12 Bobby: I’m based in Austin and the heat tends to take over me intensely.
00:02:17 Hugh: I was living in Austin for a lot of this year. I loved it, but it’s very hot. I agree. But it’s really nice. Have you lived there your whole life? You were Texan born and raised as well?
00:02:28 Bobby: I was actually born and raised in Dallas or the Dallas-Fort Worth area in Arlington where the Cowboys Stadium is. I used to call it the patch of grass connecting Fort Worth and Dallas. It’s definitely grown a lot.
00:02:40 Bobby: But family moved to Boston. I stayed back in Texas and then moved to Austin about four years ago when the diaspora of the US ended up moving to Austin. It’s been a good road so far.
00:02:52 Hugh: Awesome. Has it changed a lot in the four years you’ve been there?
00:02:55 Bobby: Absolutely. It’s definitely seen the growth. My girlfriend’s in real state, so she’s been here for 10 years. As you can imagine, the real state market has gone through the entire curve. And is Switchboard in Australia or are you all over?
00:03:09 Hugh: It’s a very global business. We have a team in a range of countries. The business was started in Australia and we definitely do have a presence there. But most of our work, most of our clients are in the US and Europe. So we do a lot of operating over there.
00:03:23 Hugh: As you can imagine, Bobby, it’s a really global software product and platform that we operate. For us, if we’re connecting all the different IT systems and supply chains, whether you’re using NetSuite or SAP or Microsoft or whatever it is in Australia or in France or in California or in Canada, it really doesn’t make a huge difference.
00:03:43 Hugh: Very global, which is fun. We get to talk to lots of people all over the world and often they’re not dealing with a lot of other Australians.
00:03:50 Bobby: How did you get involved? Was supply chain always the goal?
00:03:54 Hugh: It’s funny for a couple of reasons. My mum always says now that she’s not at all surprised that I’ve ended up in supply chain. As a child, I was always… loved the big ships and the big trucks and all the kind of stuff as many do. So there was an underlying piece for me, but it wasn’t destined from the beginning or anything.
00:04:17 Hugh: It’s funny how when you look back on it and play it retrospectively, it all stacks up very neatly. But of course, in reality, going forward through it, it’s a hodgepodge of different things and decisions and it led me into where it was.
00:04:30 Hugh: So for me, what the story was, was I started life at BCG. I was a management consultant, front views in Australia and Asia and the US. And left BCG to go to Uber and ran a lot of the driver side and product in the Australian, New Zealand market for Uber for a couple of years.
00:04:49 Hugh: And then I was approached by an early stage startup. What was at the time very early stage startup called LoadSmile, which was then rebranded to Ofload. And I joined Ofload very early, essentially the first employee.
00:05:02 Hugh: Ofload is a digital road freight platform, similar to Sender or Convoy or some other businesses. Built and grew that business very early. I ran operations. And so in addition to what the normal parts of running an early stage tech company, all that goes along with that.
00:05:20 Hugh: In addition to that, because of the way that Ofload makes its money, I also had to literally run a big transport and storage business, a big national distribution company, because we were on the hook for moving the goods as well.
00:05:30 Hugh: Boy, oh boy, was that a learning curve. We were essentially a freight forwarding company and so dealing with our clients and dealing with all the different transport and trucking companies in Australia.
00:05:39 Hugh: Through that work and building in our business, I ran operations for the first few years and we built it from doing thousand dollars in revenue a month to doing six, seven, eight million dollars in revenue a month in that initial kick. In that operating process, I saw and felt with my own hands a lot of inefficiency and a lot of the process and how it really works.
00:06:00 Hugh: Now I moved into an M&A role where I bought and sold freight companies. In doing that, of course, conducted due diligence across dozens of freight businesses. And so saw all the same themes that I’d seen myself in running this other freight business.
00:06:16 Hugh: And those themes are very heavy manual handling. Processes like orders and invoices and product updates or transport updates or whatever it may be are very frequently handled manually.
00:06:29 Hugh: And for instance, we saw a lot of the orders are emailed as PDFs. It’s opened up, typed some numbers into the AR system. In our old processes, we then download a different PDF and email that to somebody else and on the process goes and goes and goes.
00:06:42 Hugh: All this manual handling and emailing and typing, that’s cost and that’s time and it adds process. But also the errors, Bobby, you wouldn’t believe. We had someone once enter 500 instead of 50. Super easy mistake to make and the sort of thing you may not even pick up if you’re doing a quick skim back over to make sure.
00:07:00 Hugh: But that’s palettes. I sent 20 trucks somewhere when I should have sent two. That’s a hundred grand, just like that. I was tearing my hair out with this. I tried to solve it in my own business. And then I bought it to all these other companies, same problems.
00:07:15 Hugh: I couldn’t believe how hard it was to connect the various systems involved and the processes involved in doing these really business critical tasks that are done all the time between businesses.
00:07:28 Hugh: And of course I don’t want to straw man it. If you work in larger retailers, there are EDI and there are other ordering platforms that are there. But as soon as you come down below the very largest, there’s really not. This manual handling and inefficiencies is very prevalent.
00:07:42 Hugh: Essentially that was the context that I was working in for a number of years. Eventually I just had a gut full, to use a crude Australian expression, of it and rage-founded, Switchboard out of my own frustration. And that’s what led us here to where we are today.
00:07:57 Bobby: That’s a very dynamic background. What lessons have you learned along the way that you brought to Switchboard when you founded the company?
00:08:05 Hugh: Switchboard is now three or four years old and we are very much over those initial phases of growing a company, which is really nice. I’m not sure where you are in the process, Bobby, but the first couple of years are very challenging. Getting the first few clients or getting the product off the ground, keeping the team moving.
00:08:25 Hugh: As a founder, you’ve got so many balls in the air. Even having worked very closely with a founder in an early stage company immediately prior to founding my own, I still didn’t fully appreciate what’s going on for founders. It’s an immensely challenging role across a number of different fronts. And that’s good and bad.
00:08:48 Hugh: The good parts of that is that the challenge and the growth is really exciting. And when you do start to see it work and the traction starts to turn, it’s all the sweeter for the grind that you had to go through. But of course, there are definitely challenging moments, especially in the first couple of years.
00:09:01 Hugh: As you observed, I do have quite a varied background. I’ve done a number of different things and I actually found that I lent on each part of that at different times.
00:09:10 Hugh: I think BCG gave me the rigor and technical discipline in the modeling and the strategy and the ability to manage ambiguous problems and to not be intimidated by the blank space that we all stare at all the time as founders. That was a really helpful foundation.
00:09:29 Hugh: And of course, Ofload gave me a lot of subject matter expertise that was fundamental. For us as a business, me having had such a direct experience of the pain point allowed us to shortcut a lot of the early product development because I had a very detailed knowledge that we were validating with other people.
00:09:46 Hugh: So there were different parts of my background that were valuable in different ways and different lessons that I took in. I think that my number one takeaway out of all of it has been just how critical the team is. And as a founder, it’s everything.
00:10:01 Hugh: And for all the intellectual and technical beauty of BCG and the deep subject matter expertise from doing it and then buying it in terms of the freight companies, the real secret sauce is learning how to recruit really well and find the right people and then keep them and keep them happy and keep them building. Well, that’s been the number one thing.
00:10:24 Bobby: I totally agree. I think the team is very important. I come from a quantitative trading background with Hedge Funds. So I do come from a finance background, so data intensive. We got into the supply train space by starting an import company, importing green coffee.
00:10:38 Bobby: We got to experience the issues firsthand and we decided, why don’t we do something about it? We rode a cargo ship for six days from Mexico to Columbia. Got boots on the ground to see how things worked. And long story short is, well, why don’t we just start turning Ceres Coffee into Ceres Technology by shifting to a founder focus?
00:10:57 Bobby: Sometimes running a business of being a founder is you have to reflect in the mirror at times. Sometimes maybe you’re getting in your own way, the personal growth. If you’re self-aware enough to identify that, that’s really critical.
00:11:10 Bobby: And building the right team around you, the culture is very important. I didn’t think I appreciated the culture as much. I thought you just put smart people in a room and they’ll figure it out. But if they’re not the same mindset, if you’re not on the same goals, the same vision, that’s where things can get derailed.
00:11:26 Bobby: And I’ve been part of teams that when you don’t have the right vision and the right culture, things do get derailed. So I completely agree with the team and the cohesion and working together as a unit, the most critical thing. Because at the end of the day it’s software, but it’s the people behind the software that are building it that push it forward.
00:11:44 Hugh: Totally. Our whole asset is our people. We don’t own trucks or warehouses or coffee or whatever. I like your point from earlier. The self awareness and self growth founders have to do is very extreme. I agree 100%. I am a wildly different person and different operator now than I was at the start of the journey. That’s definitely true.
00:12:07 Hugh: But it’s also not always easy to see it and to acknowledge when you need to change yourself and you don’t get a lot of feedback to manage it. It’s an interesting thing. What did you observe in your coffee run when you went down on the cargo ship? Was it fascinating?
00:12:23 Bobby: It is truly amazing. It’s remarkable how any good, there’s behind the scenes that nobody sees. When you go to Starbucks and your coffee is two minutes late and people get upset, you know that there was a 9 to 12 month journey from that bean being picked from the plant – which we did.
00:12:40 Bobby: We actually went to El Salvador, Costa Rica – to picking the beans, washing it, drying it, then transporting it, then putting it in a warehouse, then going to a roaster, then going to a coffee shop.
00:12:53 Bobby: It’s amazing. It’s this huge elephant that nobody sees that’s moving the world economy. And we saw that with Pillsbury... when that shuts down, everything goes crazy. People and jobs are dependent on it.
00:13:07 Hugh: I couldn’t agree more. Every single thing you buy is like that. Every single item you have ever bought in your whole life, everything you’ve eaten, everything you wear, everything you use, every day of your life has a whole supply chain that has to sit behind it. And they are immensely complex.
00:13:26 Hugh: It’s funny because I was at my school reunion a few months ago talking to some old friends. I’m very passionate about supply chain. I think it’s so interesting and so nuanced and complex and critical. And we haven’t even talked about the fact that… I mean, I don’t know what you think but it seems to me the industry that has the greatest change over the next two decades will be supply chain.
00:13:50 Hugh: I think it’s going to be a fascinating space to work in. But exactly as you’re saying, right? There’s so much interesting stuff going on. Anyway, I’m really passionate about it. I get very excited about it.
00:13:58 Hugh: And it was funny talking to friends of mine who were like, “how can you get so pumped up about supply chains? Isn’t it a bit boring?” And it’s not boring at all.
00:14:05 Bobby: Yeah. People think it’s just moving one product or like an Amazon box showing up somewhere. Just look at ChatGPT. At the end of the day, that’s run on hardware and that data center has to procure NVIDIA chips. So there’s still a supply chain involved, even in software.
00:14:21 Hugh: It’s not going anywhere. Not until we can teleport goods around instantly. But that being said however, as we both have seen very clearly, there is very significant need for supply chains to grow and change and modernize. And I think that we’ll definitely see that over the next couple of decades.
00:14:38 Hugh: I think we already are seeing it. I often liken it to banking and finance. Perhaps with your trading background, this might resonate. But 20 years ago, banking was a very manual process. Not even pneumatic tube days, I remember as a kid having to go into banks with a passbook and there was a whole manual process involved. And now in Australia, I could send you money right now on my phone. It’s wild.
00:15:04 Hugh: A similar evolution, I think, will need to take place or is taking place in the supply chain as over the next couple of decades, as a lot of these processes will need to catch up because it is still in many ways somewhat anachronistic in the way that it’s quite manually operated.
00:15:23 Bobby: It’s such a vast space. It touches so many things and supply chain can mean a lot of different things from transportation to procurement to construction of new homes for the population growth or food. It’s truly remarkable. And starting to see the changes and the embracement of technology, I think that’s going to drive a lot of the things.
00:15:45 Bobby: As far as Switchboard, what is the overall vision? Where do you see this going 10, 15 years down the road? What does that look like?
00:15:53 Hugh: For us, it’s all about this connectivity piece and the data flows. We’re a product like the flexible web that can connect into any node in your supply chain and move the data around as you need.
00:16:08 Hugh: So for us, it’s about making that experience faster and faster and easier and easier across more and more diverse sets of systems and use cases, which is a very boring sounding sentence, but it’s very material.
00:16:23 Hugh: If we’re able to push towards a universe where these very heavy IT systems with all very distinct and disparate data sets and structures are able to be unified instantly, that’s going to have a revolutionary impact on supply chains and will be one of the drivers to those changes that we’re talking about over the coming decades.
00:16:44 Hugh: And so for us, we are an infrastructure layer and it’s about making those pipes as smooth, as flexible and as fast and easy as possible. That’s our initial focus. That’s what we’re doing at the moment and working on and working with our clients and that’s getting faster and faster every day. It’s really exciting to see how well it works, to be honest.
00:17:04 Hugh: But as we grow and look beyond that, we’re standardizing all the different schemas and we’re building a unified standardized data schema for these systems. And we’d love that to eventually one day become open source and to be one of the received data, standardized data schemas that the people can use for any system to connect their supply chains up.
00:17:25 Hugh: Because when we’re able to do that and be the recognized process, that’s where we’ll really be able to have industry wide impact.
00:17:32 Bobby: That’s great. What we’ve seen is there’s a lot of companies, especially with now AI and the buzzwords, LLM, agentic, it all starts with the data. And we’ve seen a lot of companies now trying to build infrastructures, “All right. We have a lot of data internally. How do we bring that together? How do we leverage AI with all the data we have?”
00:17:55 Bobby: So building that infrastructure layer we’ve seen has become a very, very important process. And often companies say, “do we need to start off with a use case or maybe we bring in all the data we have so I can see that connectivity in a layer,” becoming now, especially with AI and how you can create analytics, companies have a wealth of information.
00:18:15 Bobby: And then you start adding all the external variables. Are you seeing the same process?
00:18:20 Hugh: Absolutely. 100%. It’s absolutely accurate. As this information is to come together, there is still an opportunity for us to improve it. There are big holes in data sets where companies are managing a process manually or the data may be imperfect or absent. There may be whole customers where the data isn’t well mapped together.
00:18:42 Hugh: We talk about the coffee industry, for example. I would imagine that there could be whole chunks of a business’s process where you can’t really rely on that data or it may not be there at all. We can all see it, that as you’ve rightly pointed out, AI really relies on that data availability and accuracy.
00:18:59 Hugh: Something that we’re excited about. And of course AI is going to be fundamental to our business as well, like everyone else’s. And we work with it a lot and there are a lot of products that we’re going to release in that vein like everybody else.
00:19:10 Hugh: But the thing that we’re excited about from our business point of view is that by being the product that is the pipes through which it all flows, we can improve the availability and the accuracy and the timeliness and reliability of the data that the businesses are going to make decisions on.
00:19:27 Hugh: If we’re pumping it into these decision-making tools or AI tools or the tools like your own, having those reliable omni-channel inputs will help businesses make the most of the information they have available and ensure that it’s the best information possible.
00:19:43 Hugh: For us, it’s very much around giving that connectivity, allowing the tools that are helping businesses make those decisions like yours to connect into any system they need to, to pull any data that they need to really reliably is going to be, we think, very powerful.
00:19:59 Bobby: Yeah. And just thinking about the time savings. A lot of those things I know that, even with on the analytics side, 80% of the work is data, is the data cleaning, is the data pipelines and it’s really 20% you’re doing the forecasting and the fun things. So having that layer would immensely benefit a lot of the analytics that are being built.
00:20:19 Hugh: Yeah, that’s right. We’re occupying, as you say, the very non-sexy part of it. But for us, what we’ve observed as well is that the piping, the integrations, the infrastructure here is, it’s a niche that the analytics players and their customers are very happy for us to take up.
00:20:36 Hugh: It’s not where they’re going to add heaps of value. If you, for example, run a big analytics software tool, you may not want your developers spending time connecting that NetSuite systems or whatever it is.
00:20:47 Hugh: We’ve been able to work in partnership really well with these businesses on all sides because it’s critical, but it’s not sexy. That’s our sweet spot.
00:20:57 Bobby: How does it work? How does one get started? Who are you typically targeting and how is it set up and maybe a use case we could walk through?
00:21:06 Hugh: The most common use case that we do is connecting a retailer or a business with its suppliers. For instance, we work with a big food and beverage platform and this platform runs in many restaurants, supermarkets, stores, coffees, bars, like hospitality venues and that kind of thing all over Asia.
00:21:32 Hugh: They receive all their ordering from these hospitality venues, is done and processed in this platform. We then connect that ordering platform out to all the suppliers. So you run a chain of restaurants and you need more beef or more vegetables or more milk or more bread or more whatever. You’ll do it on this platform and you’ll do ordering, you’ll press order.
00:21:54 Hugh: And then it’s a Switchboard integration that sees that order, pulls it in. So we’ll pull in the purchase order and we’ll create that as a sales order in your supplier system straight away. And then we’ll send back the confirmations and then invoicing and whatever else.
00:22:11 Hugh: That’s probably our bread and butter workflow, the purchase order, the sales order, the invoicing workflow. It’s a hub and spoke, is what we build and the way that our product works.
00:22:20 Hugh: So we connect into your system, for instance, company A’s system. And we’ll pull their purchase orders and then we’ll go out to all of their different suppliers. We’re the hub and we spoke out to all their different suppliers. Some might be using NetSuite, some might be on SAP, some might be on Unleashed or Dynamics.
00:22:38 Hugh: And then a couple of others might be on an accounting system, like a MYOB or something like that, or a Xero. No matter the system, we’re able to flexibly connect into whatever. So we’ll purchase order in, sales order out. And then the process from there.
00:22:49 Hugh: But the other piece that as well, as I mentioned earlier, we can go across your full supply chain. So then to continue this example, we’ll also connect you into the transport and the warehousing systems.
00:23:00 Hugh: So when that purchase order we bring in, we raise that sales order. When it’s confirmed, we can go and send, to create the transport orders, update the warehousing information, if you need to go back into your core ERP to update your inventory information, for example.
00:23:16 Hugh: We are able to stitch together all of those processes and pretty much anywhere you’ve got data moving between these supply chain IT systems, that’s where we’re able to push that data between those systems and create it instantly.
00:23:29 Hugh: So really what the system does is we can connect into any system very efficiently, pull in the data, standardize it and send it back out wherever it needs to go in whatever format.
00:23:42 Hugh: That can include, for example, we can do EDI integrations on one side to an API integration on the other side, or an FTP integration on one side to a somewhere else on the other. It really doesn’t matter to us. It’s a truly flexible tool that can plug into any system.
00:23:57 Bobby: I know you’re mentioning that Switchboard was created out of rage. What was the switch that made you identify, hey, I’m done dealing with this. I want to start Switchboard.
00:24:08 Hugh: I think it was really an accumulation of frustration for me over a few years of doing exactly the process I’ve described, in that ordering transport, invoicing flow. We were involved in that.
00:24:21 Hugh: And I was paying nine people a full-time salary to literally sit there and receive an email, open up a PDF, type some numbers in our system, download another PDF, email somebody else. I was tearing my hair out that this is in 2020 whatever, this is how the world works. I couldn’t believe it.
00:24:39 Hugh: We definitely started focusing on that ordering and that process workflow. But today we also work a lot with the analytics tools and connecting them with all their different ERPs and that sort of thing that they need to talk to to pull big amounts of data in so they can run their analysis.
00:24:54 Hugh: We work really holistically with these systems. So it started very much for me in that hanging around the ordering and the supply chain workflows and the manual handling and that because of the disconnection between all the systems. But it’s really blossomed into very much that still, but also any time the data is flowing in and out of these systems. It’s been good.
00:25:14 Bobby: Awesome. We do have a bit of a speed round.
00:25:19 Bobby: First question. What’s a book, a newsletter or podcast you’re currently enjoying?
00:25:24 Hugh: I’ve been loving The Economist has a science podcast that they release weekly. I love it. I’m totally obsessed with it. I’m not hugely scientific by background, but enough to be dangerous. It’s a really nice, totally different context, which for me to learn about some discovery in physics or whatever, I really enjoy it.
00:25:45 Bobby: Okay. Two, if you could live anywhere in the world for one year, where would it be?
00:25:51 Hugh: Thailand for sure. I love it. It’s very nice.
00:25:55 Bobby: Three. Is there an entrepreneur that comes to mind that you have maybe taken some good things from or maybe a couple of entrepreneurs or maybe just people in your life?
00:26:06 Hugh: The founder of my previous business, Ofload, Geoff Henry. I learned a lot from him and watching his experience very closehand and how that’s done, which was very beneficial.
00:26:19 Hugh: And then I think as well – this is not going to be someone that anybody else knows. But when I was in my early days, I saw a couple of really high quality people leaders.
00:26:28 Hugh: I worked under a really good manager, a guy named Daniel who had a very significant impact in how I lead and manage teams, which I think is a real strength of mine. And I owe a lot of that to him.
00:26:39 Bobby: That’s awesome. Usually the non-famous ones are the ones that usually leave you with the best feedback.
00:26:45 Hugh: Yeah, that’s exactly right.
00:26:46 Bobby: Lastly, where can the listeners find you?
00:26:50 Hugh: LinkedIn is a big one, I think mostly. So Hugh Dixson or Switchboard Cloud on LinkedIn. And of course our website, switchboardcloud.com.
00:26:59 Bobby: Awesome. Thank you for your time today. Appreciate it.
00:27:01 Hugh: Thanks, Bobby. It’s been really nice talking to you.
00:27:05 Scott Hartley: Thanks for joining us and hope you enjoyed today’s episode. For those of you listening, you might also be interested to learn more about Everywhere. We’re a first-check pre-seed fund that does exactly that, invests everywhere. We’re a community of 500 founders and operators, and we’ve invested in over 250 companies around the globe. Find us at our website, everywhere.vc, on LinkedIn, and through our regular founder spotlights on Substack. Be sure to subscribe, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.
Read more from Hugh Dixson in Founders Everywhere.
Read more from Bobby Katoli in Founders Everywhere.