Venture Everywhere Podcast: Ben Huffman with Joy Jing
Joy Jing, Head of Community at Everywhere Ventures, chats with Ben Huffman, co-founder and CEO of Contra on Episode 4: The Contra-conomy
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Ben Huffman is the co-founder and CEO of Contra, the all-in-one platform for independent workers, project-based portfolios, and freelance opportunities. Prior to Contra, Ben co-founded Ripe which was acquired by Hungry in 2020. Ben is also a music producer and audio engineer.
This episode is hosted by Joy Jing, Head of Community at Everywhere Ventures (previously The Fund). In this interview, Joy and Ben explore Contra’s unique commission-free, independents-first model. Hear their thoughts on originality in the age of generative art, creative ownership in the world of synthetic work, and thoughts on up-skilling with AI. Listen till the end for Ben’s favorite podcast that makes founders extremely informed and paranoid, and one nature-inspired productivity hack that is readily doable for everyone.
If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe to Venture Everywhere and give us a rating wherever you found us. To learn more about our work, visit Everywhere.vc and subscribe to our Founders Everywhere Substack. You can also follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter for regular updates and news.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jenny Fielding
Hi, and welcome to the Everywhere podcast. We're a global community of founders and operators who have come together to support the next generation of builders. So the premise of the podcast is just that: founders interviewing other founders about the trials and tribulations of building a company. Hope you enjoy the episode!
Joy Jing
Hi, everyone, I am with Ben Huffman today from Contra. And Ben, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Ben Huffman
Everyone, my name is Ben, thanks, joy for having me. I am the co founder and CEO of Contra. And I'm happy to be here.
Joy Jing
All right, Ben. So you are a serial founder. So tell us about your journey? And what kind of insights have you been able to take from your previous ventures?
Ben Huffman
Yes, so it's funny, I love being on this podcast for a couple reasons. One, because The Fund has invested in supporting me through both of my companies and two like, you know, coming in at the preseed you get to know the the investors that like back at the earliest the best, because you just have years and years of experience and memories with them. You know, I actually got into technology through being a music producer, doing things like the actual sequencing and the audio engineering behind radio music. So I was I was I was producing music for Sony, UK. And fun fact, I actually still produce all the songs for the launch videos for Contra. So if you ever watched the other thing, and you like the track, that's actually me, so you know, if you don't like it, you know, whatever. But if you do, definitely leave a comment and say something. Yeah, I got into technology, through music. And I remember I would produce these songs, and usually it's just a hobby. It's something I've been doing since I was 12. It's one of the first like, pieces of software that I ultimately was able to hack was a digital audio workstation. But you kind of learned like the ins and outs, because once you make a song, you also have to make like the graphics. You also, you know, the cover art or whatever. And I just remember, like uploading these things to SoundCloud. And at one point someone reached out and they asked like, Hey, Can I buy one of your one of your songs? And I was like, what does that mean? I was like, I'm old, you know, work in person jobs and like dumb things, or like, maybe not as, as, like fun as like working in tech. And I realized that I could actually make money with a skill that I had developed. And there was like, really just in my mind, you know, so like, that was the first time I had kind of had that aha moment for what the digital world could bring. So I slowly like kind of upskilled and like graphic design. And I met a lot of people kind of in the creative scene through over the years and just became obsessed with this problem of anyone can work for anyone, anywhere in the world, like this whole idea of like anyone can work for themselves, but they could also be anywhere in the world that doing that. And the first time I was exposed to this problem was starting my first company. So Ripe was actually a Fund backed company as well.
Joy Jing
Amazing. Wow.
Ben Huffman
We're small business at first. And so we were... at our peak, we were doing roughly like $5 to $6 million a year in revenue. But we had a P&L, right. So we're a small business, we had to operate, cashflow positive, otherwise we couldn't exist. And so like we'd never had the funds for, you know, a full time engineering or design team. But we still needed great branding, we still needed, like custom software, we still needed a lot of things. And so we would always work with independent workers and freelancers to get these things done. And so in the very earliest days, I was using oDesk and Elance to find people that helped me build this product. And you know, that ultimately turned into Upwork. And so I thought it was the coolest thing. I would come home for the holidays, and show my parents like my Skype and be like, hey, look like this person in India or this person in South America. They thought I was crazy. They're like, what is going on? Like, how can you trust these people? And I don't know, it just it just worked. And it was it was really fun. And so that's kind of how I got into tech. And that's kind of how I came across across the problem for Contra.
Joy Jing
That's incredible. This is back in the days when I think Skype was still a primary method of communication internationally. I love that. So how did you guys decide on the name like what's in the name Contra?
Ben Huffman
So actually, my wife picked the name. And so we were kind of going through... because like I had this need I had this idea. So I had been like a massive whale customer on all these platforms. And that was using this one platform called crew.co. And it was like this high end like design slash engineering marketplace. And it had like solved all my needs it basically you could find like really great designers really great engineers and kind of pair them up and you could like build products and it was super fun. But ultimately crew got acquired by dribble and dribble is a great platform for designers. But I think the the acquisition didn't go the way they thought. And they ended up shutting down crew and I was a customer. I was like, Holy shit, look, this is like, literally how I manage my teams. I like open contracts. And they're like, Yeah, we're going to discontinue this. And I was like, that's crazy. And so I thought about the problem. And I was like, You know what, like, I know so much about the space only because I've been a user in the space, I had been a freelancer myself, and then been like a client myself, for so long. I was like, you know, I really need something that's gonna, that's gonna work for me. And so, once I started as a side project, I was like, you know, what would the world what would it look like, in a world where everyone, in some capacity works for themselves? Like, what does that product look like? Because I knew that was coming. I saw this, and I was like, you know, the best people back then would, you know, command remote work, and they would command relationships, because they could, they were the best. They're extremely in demand. And, you know, COVID happened, and all of a sudden, everyone's remote, you know, and so, you know, it was just kind of like crazy shift. But before that, you we were thinking like, okay, like, what is what is this? What is this product going to be? And so the first thing we knew it needed to be was commission free, because like, there was so much friction in the relationships that I would I would create on these platforms, because there was a commission in the way of our transaction. So every time I paid someone, 20% of that was taken from them and given to the platform.
Joy Jing
Oh, wow, that's a really high rate.
Ben Huffman
Yeah, I mean, it looked and it made and made a lot of sense back in the day, like that was coming the web 1.0 to web 2.0 consumption model, which is like GMV take rate, like the platform does this much sales, it takes this much as a rake. And that's, that's the revenue. And it made sense. Because before, you know, there was like a pretty closed web, there wasn't great communication tools, there weren't great collaboration tools. And there weren't great payments tools. So it kind of made sense. But I knew that was the first thing that had to go, that was like, you know, we cannot have a condition to be in our product. I was like, the world is like changing, communication is getting cheaper, collaboration is getting cheaper. And now USDC payments, there's PayPal, there's all these, there's Venmo there's all these different ways to get around and do a transaction off off platform. And I saw that was a pretty big problem that they were having from like, just like their public filings. And so like, we're like, Okay, this is gonna be a commission free marketplace, or maybe a commission free network. So we're thinking about these different names. And you were trying to think of something that like went against the grain, like something that was very easy to type. Yeah, to think about the it's, it's you that you have to do the keyboard strokes, like how do I actually type this thing out, though, easy to remember. And that kind of stood for this, like, you know, alternate path going against the grain. So we had these two names that we trademarked. One was free works, which you know, and the other one was Contra. And obviously, Contra's a way better name. Free works sounded like wework, like that was like, you know, already taken and it's just like that we really needed another like, Upwork style name? Contra just stuck. And as soon as my wife said it, I was like, Holy shit, I was like, that's pretty good. I was like, I think that's it. And so we ended up rolling with that. And so funny story. We, you know, we bought the domain Contra.work. And we're like, well, we can't have a dot work domain, because our emails will never get delivered. And no one will ever find us. And it's not, it's not legitimate. So we had to buy contra.com. And so at the time, we were still bootstrapping it. This is before. You know, I was like, pitching the idea to anyone else. Just an idea. And so I ended up finding the person who owned contra.com
Joy Jing
You found them! Wow.
Ben Huffman
And so I had to actually go off and start negotiating right? This was like these, I think there's either brothers there are these two friends that ran a creative agency in mainland China, but they were from, I think, the Netherlands, or Germany or whatever they are, they're from Europe, but they lived in Hong Kong, I think. And then they had this production agency that did like, you know, big ads, like really great ads actually, from mainland China. And so we had to start negotiating. At the time, like, you know, I knew this is gonna be expensive, but I had no idea how expensive this domain would actually be. And so it ended up costing, you know, in the end, like the the low six figure range, and I had two days, it was it was crazy. I basically maxed out my credit card, and I took like a domain a domain financing kind of like deal where I was basically making monthly payments on the second I bought it and that's how the name stuck, the name stuck because basically, we love the name and then I basically put, you know, all of like, my personal finances on the line to have like this ".com" and it was like probably not the smartest thing that I've ever done, but it definitely made me work harder to make the company a success.
Joy Jing
Wow, I love I love that story. Both because your wife came up with you know the name but also you paid six figures for six letters. So that's quite the deal. That's incredible. Wow. And I also my vote is for Contra over free works. I thought it was because contract, so contra is short for contract. You know, I do like the Contra name. I love that. So you mentioned a little bit about like Upwork before. And also wework, what's your, you know, differentiation from the brands that are already here like Upwork, and Fiverr, and all the other platforms?
Ben Huffman
Totally. So the biggest thing for, like independence or like the freelancers who are on our platform, like the biggest thing, by far is the fact that we're commissioned free. I think this sets a crazy tone for like what the product can actually do. Because if you think about when you're building a product, you have to constantly make decisions around like, what types of freedoms and what types of constraints you put on your user base. And so if entire business is constrained by the need to capture a commission fee, all of a sudden, you'd have to make product decisions that kind of meet that constraint, right. So us being an open platform, we can build more of a network, or we can build in social features, we can build in discoverability features. We can have, like sharing features that, you know, it doesn't really matter to us because we don't take a commission fee. Obviously, we want users to use our payment tools, we want users choose our invoicing tools and things like that. But it's not a requirement. It doesn't need that, like we're not gonna live or die by that. So we can actually make a product choice. There's like messaging and sharing and social features that you can't really do, and GMV type marketplace. The second thing that was a really big differentiator is that we decided to focus on the independent. If you think about all the marketplaces before, they would focus on the client, their branding, like get more done, you know, do more with less like they would basically focus on the client side from a branding and mission perspective.
We always chose to focus on the independent because we, you know, our contrarian take is that the independent side is actually the hard side of the network. And so when you think about like building a network, or you think about building a marketplace, there's typically like an easy side, there's a hard side. And I think in the past, it might have been true, that, you know, the client side was the hard side. But I think as like collaboration tools, like I said, automations, you know, communication tools, and payments are becoming easier and easier and more frictionless and more frictionless. I actually think that the new hard side that's evolving, is the independent side. So we decided to really focus on independents and really brand towards independents, and align our goals and our incentives with theirs, first. And so we consider ourselves an independent-first platform and community. And I think that's like, ultimately, the biggest differentiation. So just to repeat, we're commission free, and we're independents first. And so those things tend to go a long way. Like I said, the commission, the commission free side really trickles down into so many different product decisions. And so I think that is ultimately our biggest differentiator. And then I would say that we're building more of a network and there's a marketplace within our network network where people can really, you know, I don't know, find a community. So one of our team members, Maddie, like, dropped this, like really cool line last week and one of our leadership meetups, where she basically said, just because you work independently doesn't mean you work alone. And I thought that, I was like, I was like, holy shit. Maddie, that's amazing. And so like, I think that's something that really, really resonates with a lot of people. Because like, we're also digital, you know, we're also like, incredibly online, you know, we're also Digital First, and I think, you know, that can breed loneliness in some ways. But as an independent, like Contra wants to facilitate, you know, something that's more than just like, Okay, this is your income, but you also feel like you're protected, you have a partner in this. And then also, it's a community that supports you. And I think that's gonna be extremely important. The further we go into, like, kind of like being digital first.
Joy Jing
That's the model of I think 2023 of just been digital first, being remote, being independent. I love the discussion on the two sides. I feel like any platform, there is a harder side to engage and network effect...it can be finicky on both sides. That's so cool. And then so I think you went in a little bit about this in terms of the challenges and just opportunities. What do you see as your biggest challenge today that you face in the company? And then what opportunities are you really excited about going forward?
Ben Huffman
So I think a challenge that I think we're all going to face in some way or another is kind of this like this new world and this rise of AI technology, like these large language models, all this generative AI like what's what's kind of happening in this space is very, very interesting, because it's completely redefining knowledge work. So is it like, you know, what's typically like, pretty difficult before are now becoming, you know, attainable within seconds, such as, like writing a blog post. Like, even some of the stuff I don't know if you've checked out this product called midjourney, but it's, it's like, it's a product that works in discord. And you can just imagine things and like, it's so crazy how accurately this thing can create images and art. And it's really fascinating. So this is like just the beginning. And so I think a lot of what knowledge work used to be is going to be redefined. Yeah. And I like that's something thing that definitely keeps me up at night. Because it's like, what does that mean, as a team internally? Like, how do we make sure that our people are upskilled? To the point where like they can, like, be competitive and like they can like have like the skill set to enter this new world? But also, what does that mean for our users? Like how do we empower users to make sure that like, they're not crazily disrupted by like, all these generative technologies, and it's going to happen, right? These things are going to kind of like make their way into the mainstream. They already have in a lot of ways with like, chat GPT. But it's just beginning. So like, what is next? And I think those are the things that I'm constantly thinking about. And a question that I'm always asking is, alright, so you know, before like, credibility, was your LinkedIn. Or was your resume or your portfolio. But what is credibility? In a world where everything is synthetic? Like, how do you actually even determine credibility? What actually matters? Is it that human to human connection? Is that even more important? And like, how can you quantify that? How can you actually display that in a way that is digestible for everyone else? And so I don't know, we're kind of entering into the world of like deep fakes and synthetic everything.
Joy Jing
I want to dig in a little bit here, because you also come from music producer background, so you've actually created original work. So with the rise of I think dall-e, and just all kinds of like the synthetic art and and chat GPT, like synthetic writing, what is your take on ownership and originality on the world of...that?
Ben Huffman
So it's so crazy. So there was always like, I'll just go back from like a music perspective, there was like this big debate about kind of like analog versus digital, that was like this old debate of like, which one actually sounds better. And I remember whenever I was producing, like digital music, you know, everything was sequenced, everything was like what a true music musician would consider like fake, where like, I would have like drum patterns that would be sequenced, and then like synth patterns that would be sequenced. And what you'd have to do to actually make the sound good is you'd actually have to humanize it. And there was a setting within like production called humanize.
Joy Jing
Really!
Ben Huffman
It creates small errors, in where your different notes in your different patterns will line up. So that way, it would sound more organic. And so I think there's going to be a parallel in this new world of generative, and we're already seeing tools that come out, like, you're going to be able to tell when something is synthetic, whether it's a blog post, an article, an image, and there's going to be tools that actually humanize and create error and create distinction, I think that's going to be interesting, I think that's obviously something that's going to happen.
But ownership is tough, because the reality is in the entire history of the world, it's always been copying and innovating, and copying, it's this endless cycle. So we're kind of gonna go into this like super hyper condensed version of that process with all these like, because like now, for example, if we're using midjourney, we could just, that's pulling inspiration from somewhere, right? We might not even know, right? We might have we've been saying, like, we think of the prompt, and there it is. So it's something that we're going to have to adjust to. It's going to be painful, but I think in general, it's always good to try to ride the wave of change versus trying to resist it. And so we're already seeing some, like losses come out. I think Getty Images was suing one of these like, like, external diffusion. There's gonna be some people who try to fight it. It's it's a valiant effort, I don't think it's going to work, I think, Well, the change is going to happen so fast, we're gonna have to learn to adapt. So I'm undecided on like, what ownership actually means. Coming from the world where like, everything was downloadable, you know, like, when I grew up on the internet, everything was like, you know, torrented and downloadable, and there was no real ownership anyway. So like, I think that's like, almost an idea of the past. And I think where we're going is going to be even crazier, something we can't imagine.
Joy Jing
That's fascinating. There's been so much debate on you know, do artists own their work once it's out on the, on the internet? And I think someone created a piece of art that looks so AI made that the judges thought it was AI made, and the artist was like, I have Photoshop layers. So it is it's fascinating. That's super interesting to hear your perspective, too, as an artist and a music creator. And so coming back a little bit onto Contra, are there, you know, key moments or people that you would say, helped you put on the right path, or maybe not the right path, but just the current path that you're on.
Ben Huffman
100% so I definitely want to call out Jenny Fielding from The Fund. I think, you know, it's funny, because I often talk to a lot of like, preseed investors now and like they're always looking for like the next deal. But like Jenny, like, backed both of my companies, and was like one of the first checks into Contra and I think like, I don't know, what preseed valuations are now. Jenny got into Contra at a $5 million post which is crazy. I don't even know if who'll even do that. But like, I think the reality is we went on to raise like, you know, a seed round, a Series A, Series B, and Jenny was a reference for me all along the way. But like it couldn't have happened without kind of like that first check. And it's, it's crazy. Like, I don't think people understand how impactful that is. So preseed investors - just know you are doing fantastic work for founders, especially when you have that kind of like that early belief. It just, it really is a game changer and something that I'm forever grateful for. But also around the same time, our head of creative her name is Erin Horner. Like, I actually met her in New York, through one of these freelance communities. And she was so funny, like, we still use the same logo she produced in 2019. It was all conceptual, it was such a, like, an awesome kind of partnership to create, because she actually came on as a freelancer, then, over time, like we work more and more together. And then she she had her first kid, and she went on maternity leave. And then when she came back, she's like, Hey, I really want to kind of do this Contra thing full time. And it was just like, such a huge, I think, you know, leap forward for the company, because she's just so talented. And just like, we've always kind of been known for our brand. And like that was someone like who I met in New York, I think it was actually there's someone in The Fund's community. So like it just like that was, that's another cool like, partnership that kind of helped push us more. And I could say that about a lot of our earliest team members like Ryan and Joseph and Zoey, and Gajus, but like, you know, I think that, you know, it's it always, it always is a village. And it always just takes like one person to really truly believe. And like I said, like, for that, The Fund and Jenny were like, really like some of my first believers. And that's pretty cool.
Joy Jing
Well, I'm so grateful to hear that. It sounds like Erin is an incredible talent that is a success story for Contra!
Ben Huffman
Absolutely.
Joy Jing
That's wonderful. And then back to you. What would you say your superpower is? If you have one?
Ben Huffman
Let's see, um, you know...
Joy Jing
what are you known for?
Ben Huffman
I'm extremely optimistic, with a healthy level of pessimism. And I think my superpower is: I make decisions really fast, without having to really think too much. I have this, especially with Contra, because I've been this user of a product like Contra or Contra itself. I mean, now, like, our own team, you know, we spend around 800,000 to a million dollars a year just hiring people off our own platform, right. So like, we're like users of the product. I just think that like, I'm extremely optimistic. And I really understand this space. And so I it's like, it's like, I accidentally became an expert at what Contra does, you know, just over time. And so I think that's my superpower for now. I also love to be creative. Like I said, I come from a music background. And like, I come from a design background. And so I just love like really thinking about like brand, and really thinking about brand moments, like brand exposure, I think in a creative way. And so that's something I really enjoy. And it's something that I would do, you know, even if I wasn't working on Contra, and so I would say those things I like to do whether or not they're my superpower or not, I don't know. But you know, hopefully I'm good at them. We'll see.
Joy Jing
We'll say that is. Yeah. And I will definitely hit you up for some design and branding expertise! And then we have time for a couple of speed round questions. So hope you're ready. So let's say, what is a book that you're reading or podcast or enjoying besides this one, obviously.
Ben Huffman
Let's see. Tons of books that I'm reading, maybe I have too many on rotation, but I want to mention a podcast. I absolutely love the All In podcasts. That's probably, you've probably heard that a million times. It's basically a free service that makes founders extremely paranoid. And it's it's incredible like so they they basically starting in like November of 2021. They're like, Okay, this is the top, founders get ready. In the beginning of 2022. They're like spreading the like, hey, like this market's about to go sideways, funding's about to dry up, you better right size your teams, and all the way through 2022. They had that same message. And like, I remember, like, this was such a wake up call for me personally being like, okay, like the market is shifting, like, let's plan appropriately. But I had such a head start. Because of the All In podcast, it was absolutely crazy. And so like they do, I guess it's a free service that makes founders extremely informed and paranoid, which is good. I think that's like, actually like a pretty good thing. So if you're a founder out there, and you want to have like, a really good outlook on macro, or you want a really good outlook on what's happening in the state of technology and VC, definitely check that out there. It's probably the best podcast in the world for that.
Joy Jing
Would you say they caused the crash and panic? Haha.
Ben Huffman
No... that was, well, I mean, who knows? Right? Like, I think there's like, there's that theory that, you know, basically sentiment creates the outcome, but I don't know, I think it was, it was a long time coming. And there's just too many other players, but like, it was, like I said, extremely timely. And I remember being able to come to my board and be like, hey, like, this is what I'm worried about. This is what we're gonna do about it. And that was because of the insight from the All In podcast, so yeah, super, super grateful and like highly recommended.
Joy Jing
Make sense. Okay. And then If you could live anywhere in the world for one year, where could it be?
Ben Huffman
I personally love, I love Miami. I love San Francisco. Those are the two places I spend most of my time. But also in New York, like I lived in New York for nine years. You know, it's like, I'm totally a New Yorker, but I don't know, it's it's hard. It's hard to pick one place like I'm such a nomad, I kind of just go where my team is because we're all remote. So I would say, it would be a mix of things. I don't know if I can answer that one.
Joy Jing
Okay, so you'd be nomading for a year basically. Okay, perfect. And then while you're nomading, what is your favorite productivity hack?
Ben Huffman
Geez, I might have too many, I think one of the most important things you can do every day to just like, put yourself in a good mood is just kind of, you know, get some sunlight in your eyes. Like, I think it's like, it's that simple. I think it's hard. Like obviously, like I spent, you know, nine New York winters. And so I know, I know, that's not exactly the easiest thing to do. But if you can, just as early as you can in the morning before you like really get into your groove, like, you know, move a little, you know, not stare at the sun, because that'll hurt your eyes. But like, get some sunlight, you know, on your face and in your eyes. And I think it just does kind of set you up for success. So like, that's one of the things that I love to do. But I also love fitness. There's a million other things I could talk about. But I think that's probably the most important one just like you know, wake up and just like, let the natural world kind of wake you up a bit.
Joy Jing
I think you'll find great luck in Northern Europe in the summer. Or Alaska. Just have absolutely all day of sunlight.
Ben Huffman
Maybe that's where I'll spend the year. Follow the weather. Yeah, exactly.
Joy Jing
Amazing. And lastly, where can listeners find you? So in person, online, how?
Ben Huffman
yeah. So I actually have a Contra portfolio that's powered by a personal domain. It's get-ben.com. It's really funny. And then obviously Twitter. I'm underscore Ben HQ. And then also on Cnotra, contra.com/ben. And I really only use Twitter in terms of social so maybe hopelessly addicted. But yeah, find me on Twitter.
Joy Jing
We'll link those then. Thank you so much, Ben. This is so fun. I'm gonna go check out Contra and start my own page. So very excited. Thanks for being on!
Ben Huffman
Thanks, Joy.
Scott Hartley
Thanks for joining us and hope you enjoyed today's episode. For those of you listening, you might also be interested to learn about everywhere, where first check precede fund that does exactly that. We invest everywhere. We're a community of 500 founders and operators and we've invested in over 250 companies around the globe. Find us at our website, everywhere.vc on LinkedIn and through our regular founder spotlights on Substack. Be sure to subscribe and we'll catch you on the next episode.