Venture Everywhere Podcast: Pierina Merino with Anna Barber
Anna Barber, Partner at M13 and LP in Everywhere Ventures, catches up with Pierina Merino, founder and CEO of Flickplay, on Episode 7: Press Play with Flickplay
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Pierina Merino is the founder and CEO of Flickplay, the first platform to build a commerce and experience layer for digital toys connected to the culture of locations and their communities. Fans can own and play with digital toys from their favorite characters, and engage with other fans through shared love and connection. Pierina’s former life was in architecture and design, launching the first 3D-printed product brand to sell nationally at Nordstrom.
This episode is hosted by Anna Barber, Partner at M13 and LP in Everywhere Ventures (previously The Fund), also a former founder. In this interview, Pierina and Anna discuss transforming on-screen characters into real world connections. Hear their thoughts on what drives the next generation of consumer products, content, and engagements. Don’t miss Pierina’s hot take on walled garden experiences on social media and her predictions for a mixed-reality future!
If you liked this episode, please give us a rating wherever you found us and be sure to subscribe to Venture Everywhere. To learn more about our work, visit Everywhere.vc and ideas.everywhere.vc on Substack. You can also follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter for regular updates and news.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Jenny Fielding
Hi, and welcome to the Everywhere podcast. We're a global community of founders and operators who've come together to support the next generation of builders. So the premise of the podcast is just that: founders interviewing other founders about the trials and tribulations of building a company. Hope you enjoy the episode!
Anna Barber
Hi, I'm Anna Barber, I'm a partner at M13, an LA based venture capital fund investing at series A in the future of consumer behavior across health, commerce, the future of work and fintech. I'm also an LP in Everywhere VC, and a very fortunate investor in Flickplay. And I'm excited to be here in conversation today with Pierina Merino, the CEO and founder of Flickplay.
Pierina Merino
Thank you for having me. So excited to be here.
Anna Barber
Tell us a little bit about you first! So Perina, you know, I've known you for a while, originally invested in Flickplay a few years ago, very early in your journey. And it's been just so terrific getting to know you over the past few years and watching this creative company that you've built. But you started your career in a very different place as an architect. So can you tell us a little bit about your origin story and how you came to found Flickplay?
Pierina Merino
Yeah, absolutely. So I've been working at the intersection of design and technology for the last 10 years. And I do think that if I look back at what's been the common thread, I'm on every venture or project that I've been a part of has been my passion for evolving human experiences and for pushing the boundaries of the possibilities of achieving so. And because of that, I started my career as an architect for Frank Gehry designing massive scale architectural projects. And as the VR space has started to commercialize, Oculus got acquired by Facebook. I was part of Frank Gehry's office, designing Facebook offices. And from outside I was kind of like involving the inside of seeing the the evolution of technology and where things were heading. And I started to see VR as that second medium to continue to amplify human experiences. And that was my transition from architecture into being fully involved in the technology space.
Pierina Merino
Fast forward to that launch, my first company that was a 3D printed product line. God, my 101 entrepreneurship, taking a product to market, selling over 30 stores nationally with Nordstrom, and realizing the massive consumer trend that was happening in the offline experience, driven by the desire of people building their digital identities. And how millions of people were running in the streets capturing a Pokemon. We had hundreds of, thousands of people lining up outside experiential pop-ups, to be able to create and share stories. And at the same time, we start to see kids using their identity from games like fortnight beyond that ecosystem, and penetrating though their identity from the games within Tiktok, and Instagram. So I would say that my background and kind of like a lot of the evolution of social have driven a lot of my interest.
Anna Barber
Yeah, it's interesting, I feel like you've always been a little bit ahead of the curve in terms of technology, seeing that VR was going to happen was going to be important before it really took off. And then really AR so Pokemon Go was really the advent of AR and you saw the potential of that. And the way that technology was creating social experiences, and allowing people to connect their digital identity with what they were doing in the kind of physical world. So you were ahead of the curve on that. And then really, honestly, you were doing a web 3 company before web 3 was, you know, even had a name. So can you tell us a little bit about today what Flickplay has evolved into?
Pierina Merino
I know. To that to that comment, actually, because it's kind of funny. And I need to call out my investor Tommy on these podcasts. Because he tells me at some point, you're going to - you have to say it somewhere because I remember when I was raising...actually my second round, which was the one that you invested on, one of my investors from that round told me: Have you thought about crypto and ways to introduce crypto within your platform? And I remember calling an advisor and asking him I don't really know what to answer. I don't know what he means. But I think that he got early, the whole idea. I mean, we were more involved in the web 3 space, not much on the cryptocurrency aspect of it, yet, but he got early the idea around ownership and how since early on, we were thinking about these digital experiences as something that people own. And that that was a big part of the value of the platform, rather than most investors in the ecosystem - never thought about the top of the funnel of a social platform converting users by having them purchase something.
Pierina Merino
Because social has always been driven by advertising models, and not by commerce driven models. So it's actually pretty interesting how early on like we couldn't put really the dots together as to how we will get where we are. But there was a very aligned vision around how digital ownership and access to the digital experiences was gonna drive how people will build their social crowd. But anyways, like that, kind of like where I grew up aside, Flickplay is a consumer platform that powers the commerce and experience layer for digital toys in the real world. We're partnering with some of the biggest media companies in the world, to distribute, sell their digital toys in real world locations and enable a platform where people can not only access digital toys from the IPs that they love in locations that they like spending time at, or that they're visiting, but also bringing communities of fun together, and enabling them to engage with each other in the platform.
Anna Barber
What I find so compelling, and I've always really loved about your vision, is this idea of bringing the real world and social media and kind of people's social crowds together to encourage people to go out. And, you know, bring those experiences into the real world. And then the third leg of the stool, as it were, to your model is these great brand partnerships. And, you know, just to put a point on what you just said about digital toys. So one of the things that I think is so interesting is that you've really landed on this brand, and this kind of go to market strategy that's about you know, digital collectibles and toys, which I think is really interesting. So who are some of your key partners? I know you're working with some, like big brand name partners to execute this. So tell us a little bit about those partnerships to the extent you can.
Pierina Merino
Yeah, so everything is confidential still because we're waiting for the big release from each of them.
Anna Barber
Okay, so don't tell us then.
Pierina Merino
But I do think that it was really, it's been a very exciting journey to see how media companies are shifting their perspective around IP only being driven and controlled by the experiences that they create and the content, they push it out. And digital objects is starting to become toys, the same way physical ones are, that consumers control and build stories with, independently from the stories of media company. So a lot of announcements or announcements are coming up very soon. So I don't want to spoil that, I don't want to be killed through a call after the podcast really so...
Anna Barber
Fair enough. Fair enough. So do you see Flickplay mean...Is it more of a social network? Is it more of a marketplace for digital toys? Is it both?
Pierina Merino
Yeah, so it's - we are top of the funnel - is commerce. We, through multiple twists and turns around figuring out what really powers that authentic engagement and connection between people and the Flickplay product, we realize that only something that you can interact with within the platform really powers a massive level of engagement and retention within the ecosystem. So the commerce layers, is that really first step in the user journey for people to have something that they love to interact with.
Pierina Merino
I always give the example or the analogy analogy that if you go to a coffee shop, and by default, you always in the morning, buy coffee. But you're not feeling like coffee this morning. The moment you purchase a coffee, you're going to force yourself to drink it, whether it is in 20 minutes, or in the first five hours of the day, right. But you already have that commitment towards a purchase that you make. And we see that through the different pilots that we have run in the ecosystem. When commerce drives engagement, there is much return on authentic experience that is created in the ecosystem. But that's just the starting point because we do believe that ownership is bigger than anything that we have seen before. And that will drive a lot of how we shape our identity online. The same way at some point on Facebook and friends bought on became that moment of connection, the same way the life bought on Instagram and became that level of connection with other people and validation as a creator. We believe that ownership and you being able to penetrate yourself into an ecosystem where without creating, without any output, by connecting your wallet, your culture and identity starts to come to life - will drive the next generation of consumer products and engagements. And that is still in the works, which is the exciting part of being building at this point.
Anna Barber
So because you're focused on digital toys, as it were digital collectibles, but really you're calling them digital toys, which I think is very accurate. Given who some of your partners are, and what some of the IP is that, you know, I'm already seeing in the app. So it seems like the market for collectibles or for purchasing digital assets, it's starting to fragment a little bit from the perspective of we have marketplaces now focused on fashion, you know, marketplaces focus just on digital art. Right? So do you think we're moving away from these kind of more generalized marketplaces where you could buy NFT, any type of NFT or just, you know, any type of digital asset to these more specialized marketplaces? And that, do you think that those specialized vertical marketplaces are going to end up kind of winning the market because they're targeted as a specific type of collectible or experience?
Pierina Merino
Yeah, it's spot on. This is a way I think about it. I think, like location is culture and culture is identity. We're not going to reinvent the wheel on how people will adopt owning or purchasing things, right. There is a natural instinct towards how we connect with the things that we purchase, whether they are fully digitally or within the context of the real world. The best example is that with globalization, like I can buy from Los Angeles, a product from Thailand, right? But the product that I buy in Los Angeles from Thailand will be very different than if I go there. And I'm in an a specific corner, and I'm able to purchase something in that physical location. And when you think about the experience, from an identity and experience ledger, of me being in the physical location, when I purchase something in the real world, you are connecting the real world experience to the purchase of something that is tied to the culture of that location. And whether I bring that back to Los Angeles or anywhere in the in the world, you're starting to shape digital identities that are authentic to the experiences that people are truly having. And the connection that they have whether as a souvenir or whether as a utility object in their everyday life. So that as an introduction to your point around what's going to happen with marketplace.
Pierina Merino
They're going to be still marketplaces that are targeting a global reach, right, and that there is no type of connection to the real world. But we're starting to see as you say, the recent centralization of everyone thinking about digital assets as a collectible - to people thinking about digital assets as products. And there are collectibles assets within every product type. But not every product is limited edition and meant to create a scarcity around the access to it. Because products also have utility and and Flickplay is focusing first on digital toys just because we see these natural instinct from kids from Roblox creating social content with their avatars in YouTube shorts. Like we start to see how people are using their identity with digital characters across social ecosystem. Because they want to more than interact with their characters - be able to build their social crowd, in social ecosystems with their digital characters. And Flickplay is the platform that brings it together. However, just like Amazon started with books. And after they became the leading marketplace for books, they opened new verticals within their marketplace. We are planning to do the same. We want to own the digital toys ecosystem, be able to provide the best experience later for digital toys in the real world. And then we will expand to wearables, we will expand to other verticals that are relevant to our user base.
Anna Barber
Yeah, I was gonna say that wearables or fashion seems like, you know, the next logical place for you to go. But you know those have other challenges too. Technical challenges with them, you know, that you don't have to solve at this point. So are your - are your customers or your users behaving as you expected them to behave? Are people doing unexpected things inside Flickplay and you know, with the Flickplay app and, you know, digital toys that you weren't expecting?
Pierina Merino
We realized really early that a lot of companies are focused on AR technology to power, their experience. They are constantly developing new layers to make it as seamless as possible. The digital and physical to come together. And what we realize is that we are going through this content transformation where people are looking for the less pixel perfect and more raw, a story with more identity substance baked into it. So for example, when we launced the first digital toy on Flickplay, the characters wouldn't walk. They just had a pose and an animated, animation in look. And we saw users forcing the characters to walk, forcing the characters to fall by hacking into. However, our camera worked to be able to storytell. So we naturally evolve the product with new feature sets to enable more creative ways for people to interact with their characters, based on those learnings that we were getting of how they were forcing the product to behave, right.
Pierina Merino
But we have never tried to go beyond what our users are already asking us or are showing that they're trying to do within their product, because we want to take them through that learning curve. So why not one of the big learnings was that early on, we wanted to focus on creating these very premium experience to create perfect images. Because in our head, we had these Instagram model that everything needs to be perfect and stable and pixel perfect, right. But what we realize is that these next generation of content, it's more about the stories that you're creating with a character - is the authenticity of the message that puts a smile on the people watching the content, and the PERT and the people creating the content. So we're focusing more in self expression, and enabling all the ways stories to guide or inspire people that own characters, to tell stories of their everyday activity. And that has been an evolution that has been driven by all seeing what our users have able to use the product for.
Anna Barber
So I think there's a debate that goes on about whether you want to build a walled garden experience and kind of have all of your users experience Flickplay and do their storytelling kind of inside that environment, or whether it's also open source, right? And you can allow people to create content and stories that they then share, you know, on other social platforms, right? How are you thinking about that? Are you thinking about Flickplay as the destination and the gathering spot where you're building the social network and the graph and allowing people to do storytelling in that environment? Or is an, is there a connectivity, you know, with other social platforms, where people may already have their friends, you know, in their followers gathering?
Pierina Merino
Yeah, I think that you're delusional - not even Tik Tok focused on creating or guard that environment. A big part of the early success of their hype moment was people posting on Instagram, Tik Tok watermarked videos, right? And a lot of the discovery of the mass adoption of Tik Tok happened through using what is this watermark that I see in these videos that are authentic and not pixel perfect, right? So I don't think that any environment should really focus on building walls around their content. I think that the reason why we migrated into the web 3 space, and we find that it's such an authentic environment to build, not from only from a technological standpoint, but from an offering standpoint - is that people can create videos with their digital characters or assets on Flickplay and share it anywhere else. But anywhere, any other web 2 platform content is one dimensional. So there is no separation between the value that your character wins based on the content that is being created on it.
Pierina Merino
Instead, on Flickplay, content is multi dimensional. So when you create a video with your avatar, you're not only building your social graph through the video that you created, but your digital avatar has its own social graph that has been shaped by the traction and discoverability that you are adding through content creation. So that is proprietary to the Flickplay platform. And we're constantly looking for ways to make it part of the blockchain footprint that we create on people's digital identity. So that it can transcend the engagement of their users, or the holders between their assets on Flickplay and other platforms. Because if a user takes a flicky a from our platform that it was bought on the Flickplay platform, and makes it their own character in the sandbox game on another ecosystem, and it goes viral there... if all the value of that character goes to the social graph of it of itself, then Flickplay will call profit from that from the revenue of the secondaries for any transaction that happens inside or outside the platform. So because our interest is so aligned to the value generation that creators are building for these characters, from a revenue generation standpoint, we are actually incentivizing Flickplay to be a destination, but not the only destination of engagement and interaction with the things that people own.
Anna Barber
That's so democratic. So the dream of ultimate interoperability, right, and kind of open walls and the idea that you can create characters on Flickplay, and they can live anywhere, and sort of be anywhere actually. In the end at the end, if, you know, if you follow an entirely open source kind of protocol like that, and kind of philosophy that actually serves to kind of build and elevate the Flickplay community. You know, which is a great, which is a great sort of perspective to have. And honestly, you know, I think interoperability, you know, web 3 assets is going to be a big challenge, you know, that needs to get solved.
Pierina Merino
We're working, for example, like with the sandbox, we have, we have, I mean, actually, this time, our standards are pretty similar, obviously, because they're a digital world. There are more, I would say, constraints or technical requirements for these assets to exist in their platform. But anyone that buys is no doggy in the sandbox. If they connect their wallet to Flickplay, they can interact with it on Flickplay. As a matter of fact, next week, next Monday, we're releasing a new technical pipeline that if you connect your blockchain wallet, all your 2D NFT's on Flickplay are going to be automatically usable. Means that you can open it in your AR camera, you can interact with them. And we're building that same robust technical pipeline for 3D assets. So that because Flickplay is not IP aesthetic constraint, you can have a pixel perfect or butchered asset. And as long as these are game ready, or follow some sort of like traditional 3D assets standards, which are becoming more and more typical, people will be able to migrate their assets into the ecosystem. Now regain and own these different other layers of the experience are things that we are constantly working on, so that we can make more seamless. But I do think that we are not far from seeing more and more platforms take the same approach, and being able to create a more open ended environment of engagement between the things that people own and, and how they can find different ways of interacting with them.
Anna Barber
Yeah, I mean, that's just going to improve utility, I think for everyone. So that's really exciting. So I'll be able to connect my wallet and all of my NFT's that I really honestly don't do much with, other than share them and look at them. I can take them out in the world. I can create content with them by placing them via that, via AR, kind of like into the physical world. Right. Okay. So that's, that's, like incredibly exciting. So like, what's the big vision for the future? Like, where are we going to be in 10 years and what will Flickplay look like then?
Pierina Merino
Yeah, we want to become the leading commerce and experience layer for digital assets in the real world. So whenever in five years, if you ever think about buying something digital in a physical location, we want you to open Flickplay and Flickplay be the destination and the discovery platform, for you to purchase digital products that are connected to the real world. But also the place where you're able to engage them, as long as it connects to the real world. So there are major, major releases that will happen in June with Apple announcements of wearables. Like we are getting to a point in time that where there will be a seamless connection between your iPhone and and wearables. Right? So we want to become the platform that create a seamless experience between the digital and physical world.
Anna Barber
You've always been, as I was saying, like a bit ahead of the curve technology wise. Do you feel like the world has caught up with you? Or is that something that you're worried about, you know, that you're still you're still a few years too early for what consumers are actually ready for?
Pierina Merino
I think that that COVID was an incredible accelerator of digital experiences. During COVID, most people in Silicon Valley were talking about how audio was going to become the next wave of social and that didn't last long. I think that there is - I mean, we already see it everywhere - like you need to be delusional to not realize what is happening around us. Kids prefer buying digital products than physical ones, right? So so we start to see content, digital products, or characters penetrate digital, all digital platforms or social platforms. Because kids want to build their identity through their digital avatars, not through themselves. They don't want to record themselves. We're dealing with one of the most insecure generations in the history of humanity, right? So I do believe that their whole, their whole world is moving to where a point in place - at a point in time and place where our digital identities, how we represent ourselves and how we're able to convey our feelings and emotions, through a secondary character, will become a way of channeling our own insecurities, or our own desires of connectivity with others.
Pierina Merino
Now, that comes with responsibility. And that's why for me after being and working at the intersection of VR and AR for the last 10 years, I think that when we hear people talking about the metaverse as something that is, is an experience that is constantly or continuously decontextualized, from the real world. It is scary, because I do believe that with any major technology change, it comes with a major responsibility of doing good for the next generation of consumer and adoption, that they will be around those products. And I do believe that we cannot block what is happening. But how we connect digital experiences to the real world to not disconnect humans from what make us humans will be the best approach towards getting where we are ultimately getting, whether we like it or not.
Anna Barber
I think that's so important, what you just said. I think like many people, I've been really concerned about mental health problems that we're seeing, you know, with our teens. And I think that, you know, the irony is that it feels like social media can make us feel more connected and closer to each other. But in many cases, it has the opposite effect, because the connections people are making aren't genuine and they're connecting with, you know, the manufactured images of their peers, right, which, as you were saying, kind of gets in the way of like real true human connection. And that we, you know, as technologists have a responsibility to think about these things and to figure out how to weave in that real true human connection into this digital world. And I think that's something honestly, that you do so beautifully. And your background as an architect, you know, probably really helps you do that. Because, you know, you come at this challenge of designing digital experiences from the perspective of really understanding the physical world. Wow.
Pierina Merino
I feel like humans are at the center of anything that we do, and where we take them into account - whether we take into account the positive or negative, or the knowns and then unknows to knowns of the behaviors that we are incentivizing? I think it's about time that we started taking responsibility for them, because there is enough history that tells us: Ha, what can go well, and what can go fundamentally wrong?
Anna Barber
Yeah. Great. Well, let's wrap with a speed round. This has been a great conversation. And for anyone who doesn't know, I'm just going to tell you to go to the app store and download Flickplay. And I'm sure Pierina will will let you know at the end where else you can reach her. But let's do the speed round. So I'm always looking for new things to read and listen to. What's a book you're reading or a podcast you're enjoying right now?
Pierina Merino
I mean, I'm reading - I'm listening for I think like the 10th time, Amp It Up. I love that book from the chairman of Snowflake. I think that it's such a great book for any founder.
Anna Barber
Oh, that's a great one. I haven't read it yet. I'm looking forward to that. Okay, I know that you've lived in a bunch of different places. So if you could live anywhere in the world for one year, where would it be?
Pierina Merino
At some point I say I say that if I was 30, and I didn't have any major commitment, I would move to Shanghai for a year.
Anna Barber
Ok that is unexpected!
Pierina Merino
But I'm over-committed so.
Anna Barber
So I'm not sure that's in your future. But I love that idea.
Pierina Merino
Yeah...
Anna Barber
I heard you're a busy founder and CEO, what's your favorite productivity hack?
Pierina Merino
I mean, it's not a very healthy one. But it does work. So whenever I know that I need to do a lot of things in a day. And that day is not enough. 4pm. I learned that coffee kicks in after 20 minutes that you consume it. So for 5pm I drink like a very thick coffee, take a 20 minute power nap and that gets me going on till 3-4am with my brain at full capacity.
Anna Barber
Oh my gosh. I don't - yeah that would not be my strategy. My like most productive hours are 6am to 8am.
Pierina Merino
Don't try that at home. But for an entrepreneur that needs a kick it does work.
Anna Barber
Kids do not try this one at home. Okay Pierina, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. Where can listeners find you?
Pierina Merino
Obviously, follow me on Flickplay. You can find us on the App Store. And whenever I can, I'm on Twitter under Merino Pierina.
Anna Barber
Awesome. Thanks so much Pierina.
Pierina Merino
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Scott Hartley
Thanks for joining us and hope you enjoyed today's episode. For those of you listening, you might also be interested to learn about everywhere, we're first check pre-seed fund that does exactly that. We invest everywhere. We're a community of 500 founders and operators and we've invested in over 250 companies around the globe. Find us at our website everywhere.vc, on LinkedIn, and through our regular founder spotlights on Substack. Be sure to subscribe and we'll catch you on the next episode.
Read more from Pierina Merino in Founders Everywhere.