Venture Everywhere Podcast: Andrew Guzman and Gabriela Isturiz
Andrew Guzman, co-founder and CEO of OpenLaw chats with Gabriela Isturiz, Partner at Everywhere Ventures.
In episode 61 of Venture Everywhere is hosted by Gabriela Isutriz, a partner in Everywhere Ventures’ The Fund XX, a serial entrepreneur, innovator, experienced CEO, and founder of two high-growth successful SaaS companies. She chats with Andrew Guzman, co-founder and CEO of OpenLaw, a platform using proprietary technology to connect individuals with attorneys quickly and affordably. Andrew shares his transition from managing law firms to founding OpenLaw, democratizing legal access and streamlining attorneys' operations. Andrew also discusses OpenLaw's unique approach, using AI and data-driven insights to match clients with the right legal professionals.
In this episode, you will hear:
OpenLaw increases access to quality lawyers who don’t have big marketing budgets.
Identifying inefficiencies in the legal industry, creating a scalable solution.
OpenLaw’s unique approach to connecting consumers and lawyers.
Offering consumers multiple lawyer proposals for price comparison and better decisions.
Balancing lawyer supply and demand by tracking case engagement data.
If you liked this episode, please give us a rating wherever you found us. To learn more about our work, visit Everywhere.vc and subscribe to our Founders Everywhere Substack. You can also follow us on YouTube, LinkedIn and Twitter for regular updates and news.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00 VO: Everywhere Podcast Network.
00:00:14 Jenny Fielding: Hi, and welcome to the Everywhere Podcast. We're a global community of founders and operators who've come together to support the next generation of builders. So the premise of the podcast is just that, founders interviewing other founders about the trials and tribulations of building a company. Hope you enjoy the episode.
00:00:34 Gaby: Welcome to the Venture Everywhere podcast. I'm Gaby Isturiz and I'm here with Andrew Guzman, co-founder and CEO of OpenLaw. Andrew, excited to be here with you today. So how about we get it started with a brief intro about yourself?
00:00:52 Andrew: Of course. So I'm Andrew. I'm the CEO of OpenLaw. And OpenLaw is a platform that connects individuals to attorneys. And on top of that, we provide tools to these attorneys to make their back office more efficient, which ultimately the goal is to bring the cost down of legal services across the board. And before OpenLaw, I was the CEO of two law firms for over a decade. And that's how I got here.
00:01:18 Gaby: Yeah, so we met before. And I think your career in legal, it's fascinating. As you said, you started as a CEO of a small law firm. And you then decided to start your own company in legal tech, which is OpenLaw. So before you decided, okay, “I'm going to start OpenLaw”, you worked about 10 years plus, 20 years as a CEO and then a COO and you're not a lawyer.
00:01:49 Andrew: Nope.
00:01:50 Gaby: So how did you venture in legal to start out?
00:01:54 Andrew: So it all started when I graduated college from UF back in 2009. So now that I graduated, I was able to connect with a solo practitioner. And ultimately we started working together and obviously he was a solo attorney. So I started helping with marketing.
00:02:09 Andrew: Then obviously that went well. Then I had to help with systems operations because we have too many clients. And then throughout my tenure, it was just always evolving and putting in new ideas and technologies to make the firm grow and be more efficient.
00:02:24 Andrew: And it got to the point where it was solo practitioner all the way to like 15, 20 attorneys, multiple states, thousands of clients and I was in the forefront of everything.
00:02:35 Gaby: So basically grew 20X. You helped the firm 20X in growth and all that.
00:02:42 Andrew: Way more than that. I would say it was an explosion and I got lucky to be on the responsibility and the faith to be able to take that lead.
00:02:52 Gaby: Amazing. So I'm sure that you're doing really well at the law firm. So you're managing, you're driving growth, success. What point do you decide, okay, so I want to leave the firm, leave this great paying job, and I'm gonna start my own legal tech company? What was the driver there?
00:03:17 Andrew: I would say, there was a part of me that at one point was I can do more. I felt this in me that I can do more because I felt I was able to build up a law firm, run it successfully, clients are happy, employees are happy, but I still felt, wow, I can offer more to the world.
00:03:34 Andrew: A lot of the tools, the insights that I implemented, I felt can span across all law firms. And I would say that was the key driving motivator. It was just a burning desire to do more.
00:03:46 Gaby: Just for context, what type of law firm were you working? Was it a defense, plaintiff?
00:03:52 Andrew: Yeah, it was a defense firm, general practice. So we did everything from civil litigation to family to immigration, criminal cases across the board.
00:04:01 Gaby: Wow. So what does that mean, I want to do more? And by the way, I do love the mission on your website, which is democratize access to law for all. So how do you guys do that?
00:04:18 Gaby: So OpenLaw, it's a marketplace, connects the consumer with the right legal provider and lawyer. So how does that translate to democratizing and make legal services more accessible to everyone?
00:04:36 Andrew: Yeah, so the one thing that people probably see whenever we have a legal issue, you Google lawyer near me and then you get bombarded with results, right? And usually these lawyers that pop up at the very beginning are ones spending a ton of money on marketing, advertising, getting all the volume and they literally consume all the noise.
00:04:55 Andrew: And then you have two thirds of the industry, which are small law firms that you don't see. And these people actually are good lawyers, effective lawyers, but they work at a fractional price.
00:05:05 Andrew: Well, what we do in OpenLaw. We allow these individuals to connect with those lawyers that you can't find half the time. They're out there. They do a good job, that fun fact, are working half the time for these bigger law firms because they get all the business.
00:05:17 Andrew: So that's how we democratize law by connecting all these individuals to literally the entire spectrum of lawyers that are actually available to them.
00:05:25 Gaby: Amazing. And on that topic, how is OpenLaw different from other directories like LegalZoom, Rocket Lawyer? Because I think those solutions are the most popular. Okay, so I need a lawyer. I'm going to go to LegalZoom or Rocket Lawyer or any other directory. So what makes you guys different, unique?
00:05:50 Andrew: Yeah. I would say what makes a specialist at for any real life legal issue, we are your go-to point. So for example, when it comes to LegalZoom, what they're really special is corporate formation. You want to start an LLC, that's LegalZoom. We want to do a trademark, a patent.
00:06:04 Andrew: I would say more for transactional intellectual property law, that's our thing. When it comes to Rocket Lawyer, I would say, you may have a legal question, maybe a lawyer will respond to your question.
00:06:13 Andrew: But I would say in terms of the most comprehensive solution, where an individual submitted case to a platform, which is OpenLaw, and then lawyers have been proposals explaining what they're going to do for them with their price, we are the only solution that gives people options of lawyers actually want to work with them and the price transparency so they know they're not overpaying.
00:06:33 Andrew: So we make the experience much more enjoyable and we put the client on the driver's seat. And like that, we drive options, we lower costs, but we also increase quality as well, because the lawyer can say, hey, everybody else in my industry is charging this much. So we help both sides at the same time.
00:06:49 Gaby: So it's price, which is one of the obstacles to justice because I mean, the rate. So you guys match the consumer with attorneys that have experience, but also it's reasonable in pricing. So to that point, what are your views?
00:07:08 Gaby: I mean, I'm looking for this lawyer. People now I've seen, they're trying to use AI just to do their own contracts because this perception, which is real, that one hour of a lawyer is gonna be 350, all the way to 750 for an associate.
00:07:27 Gaby: How does OpenLaw help the consumer to really understand or to have access to these? Or even the perception that, hey, there is a solution here by which you can really get some good services that are affordable?
00:07:45 Andrew: Yeah, I would say the biggest problem right now is access. OpenLaw is access. That's it. So when a consumer tries to find a lawyer for any type of work, it's hard to get a hold of a lawyer because they're usually at court. They're busy. They're out and about.
00:07:58 Andrew: And also lawyers, unfortunately, they are traumatized that people just want to call them and just ask for questions and then never hire. So they also don't want to waste their time.
00:08:07 Andrew: So the issue is when you as a client interact with one lawyer and you get one price, usually that's it. Maybe you get a second one and you don't know if it's too much or too little. You don't have points of reference.
00:08:19 Andrew: So what we do great in OpenLaw is point of reference. To give you as many points of reference money wise as to how much the service will cost so that you get a good idea like, oh yeah, this is really worth 300 bucks. This is really worth a thousand dollars. And I think that will ultimately give them some more confidence that they're not overpaying.
00:08:35 Gaby: Which is amazing for the consumer, but also through the platform, there's a lot for the lawyer as well. And one of the things that you mentioned, it's a more curated lead.
00:08:48 Andrew: Yup.
00:08:48 Gaby: So that they're not wasting their time. So talk to us a little bit about what is in the lawyers as well? Because it's a platform that it's very differentiated for something else and therefore, you can attract even higher quality lawyers. Tell us a little bit about the offering for the lawyer.
00:09:09 Andrew: Yeah. So right now, the current market for lawyers is if they put any ads out there, they can't control what comes in. If they go on social media, they put a billboard, they put a radio show, they can't control what comes in. They got to get every phone call. And I will get lawyers that will tell me, hey, Andrew, I spoke to like nine people and only one converted. Oh my God, I'm going crazy because they can't control what comes in.
00:09:31 Andrew: We allow that to lawyers. Lawyers don't submit proposals to cases they don't wanna work on. So we allow the lawyers before they engage an individual, put them to review the case and decide, I wanna work on this or not. And I think that's the most important thing we do firstly.
00:09:46 Andrew: The second part is once a lawyer engages an individual and the client says, yes, I want to hire, we have all these tools that standardize the back office, sending a contract to the client, getting the client to make their payment. Because right now, from what we've seen from our experience, lawyers have different methods of getting the last 5, 10 minutes to convert.
00:10:05 Andrew: So it's the ability to find or to connect with clients you want to work on. I would say also at the very end, once the client engages, offering them the tools to convert the clients into actual client and streamline that process and make it a much enjoyable experience for both sides.
00:10:19 Gaby: Yeah, and I mean, I will imagine by providing these operational efficiencies so they can be more competitive in pricing.
00:10:27 Andrew: Yes.
00:10:27 Gaby: Because they don't have the overhead of all these fees, management, contracts, payments.
00:10:33 Andrew: Yep, and usually now that staff tends to turn over very quickly.
00:10:39 Gaby: I love it. So when we had launched in Miami, Andrew, one of the things that impressed me the most, it was the growth that you have achieved in such a short period, relatively, the scale that you are gaining in the very unique approach to go-to-market. So can you share with our audience a little bit of the traction and the magic that you guys are working which is very unique for customer acquisition and go-to-market motions?
00:11:16 Andrew: Yeah, I would say that in our first full year of operation, we generated net revenue over a million dollars.
00:11:23 Gaby: Wow, in 12 months.
00:11:25 Andrew: 12 months, yes.
00:11:26 Gaby: Congratulations.
00:11:27 Andrew: Thank you. Thank you. Hard work. And I would say what makes us unique is that we're a data driven marketplace. So we have proprietary technology that sources information, real time, of individuals when they have the highest need of legal services, and that's when they're sued. So through that data point, and we leverage AI for that very heavily, we then connect with individuals, let them know, hey, there's a solution out there. You can get connected to many lawyers, you get the best possible price. And for all I see, it was a no brainer.
00:11:58 Andrew: And that's our current go-to-market where we're currently in just in two states. And we're working very hard now to expand it literally to Arizona, to California, New York, and ultimately to all 50 states.
00:12:09 Gaby: Incredible. So even before they go to search OpenLaw, it's already proactively trying to help.
00:12:17 Andrew: Yes. And that I would say is one of the main things that makes us unique from the entire market that we're in right now.
00:12:24 Gaby: So, which is also for the lawyers that it's a much more curated deal flow for them which is incredible. So how are you sourcing these lawyers to come into the platform? You mentioned that you are in two states, one is Florida and the other one is?
00:12:41 Andrew: Texas.
00:12:43 Gaby: Texas, okay. So how are you guys attracting these lawyers into the platform? And is it too little, too many?
00:12:51 Andrew: So this is something where if you build it, they will come. So right now we're getting lawyers. First, how we started was the people that I knew. Then it was through lawyers, referring lawyers to the platform and ultimately we have other channels where we just say, hey, we're a marketplace looking for lawyers that want to expand their business and the response that we get is astronomical to the point where like we have to pause that type of engagement.
00:13:16 Gaby: Wow.
00:13:17 Andrew: It's a big problem. No one will tell you what my marketing costs are. The most efficient, most effective marketing is always expensive. It's a huge time waster, huge overhead I maintain, especially in law. So we’re clear, most lawyers don't want to be wearing a marketing hat, an intake hat. They want to just be in court and do the best possible job.
00:13:35 Gaby: Which is ideal for them. So how do you guys balance the offer with the demand? At what point you said, okay, we're converting a lot of the customers. So now I don't have enough lawyers. How are you guys are doing this and if there is any tech involved to have this balance?
00:13:56 Andrew: So right now our main thing is that if we see that people's requests are getting unanswered after a certain amount of time, then that's a prompt for us to add more lawyers to the network. And as long as individuals are getting response rates literally within hours of them sending proposals, we're happy with that volume. And as long as they're choosing a lawyer, we're happy with it.
00:14:15 Andrew: But when we see people are standing abyss where they don't get a response, then we'll say, okay, is it for that particular area of law? And if we see multiple responses, then we start adding more lawyers to it.
00:14:24 Andrew: So we grow up based on the demand that we're getting. Because if not, then a lawyer will say, well, nothing comes through here. I'm going to go. So that way we ensure every side is getting action.
00:14:33 Gaby: Absolutely. Any challenges in the lawyers coming into the platform?
00:14:39 Andrew: So right now, the way that we vet lawyers is old school. We interview them one by one. And we ensure that they have not only the experience that we're looking for, and also the customer service liking, meaning that they like to provide clients with updates.
00:14:54 Andrew: So we wanna make sure we get a special type of lawyer that not only have experience, but also believe in making sure clients have a great experience. But then also what makes us really special is that every case that we bring out to OpenLaw, we track it with our system. And we let lawyers know that, hey, based on your performance, our algorithm will rank you.
00:15:11 Andrew: So if we see glimmers that the case is not being managed correctly, you will not receive more proposals or you'll be downranked. So like that, we ensure that the cases are being managed properly across the board. And then establish the baseline forms for all lawyers, an objective baseline.
00:15:27 Gaby: Incredible. And a segue to that, you mentioned that you are data-driven company, that you guys are leveraging AI for customer acquisition and others. So I have to ask right now more than ever. So what other approaches to AI you guys are implementing? In what other areas as well?
00:15:54 Andrew: Yeah, so right now what we're thinking, it's not a roadmap, is to again, optimize the back office of a law firm. Essentially, that's one of our biggest goals. So there's a lot of procedural documentation that gets drafted and filed into courts that we are gonna leverage the court data that we have to be grounding data to draft basic pleadings. That's what we're going to next.
00:16:14 Gaby: Oh, wow.
00:16:15 Andrew: So ultimately, again, the goal is to save them as much time as possible in the back end. So they become a lawyer. And also, the goal is let a solo practitioner have the power, literally, of a medium-sized firm with software. That's our vision.
00:16:29 Andrew: That you as a solo practitioner, you don't have to worry about having a receptionist, a paralegal, a legal assistant, but just overhead. We help you do all of that through AI. That's our vision.
00:16:40 Gaby: I love it. I love it. So, Andrew, will that be possible, let's say, lawyers that they just want to take advantage of the platform, the back office, and they will be less interested in the lead generation? Is that part of the game for you guys? Like, hey, I'm good with my deal flow with my cases, but I think what you guys are building is so visionary in terms of back office that I just want to use you guys for that.
00:17:10 Andrew: Yep, we are offering that. We're set to launch a set of back office tools this quarter. And ultimately, we're going to offer it to law firms that just want to partake in that benefit.
00:17:20 Gaby: Amazing. Amazing. So when is that coming?
00:17:24 Andrew: This quarter.
00:17:25 Gaby: This quarter.
00:17:26 Andrew: Not sleeping for that. So we’re good.
00:17:29 Gaby: That's amazing. So legal tech, it's harder than ever. So now finally, legal tech, it's something in the map, as well as some other accounting tech, like a heavy professional services industries. So what I'm seeing is new startups going to market with new products. We see new startups, bringing solutions every day, as well as incumbents.
00:17:57 Gaby: The incumbents are also realizing, okay, hey, we have all the distribution. So we don't want this distribution going to the start-ups. So they're also either developing their new innovative technologies with AI, also growing through some acquisition.
00:18:15 Gaby: So you've been in legal for a long time as a operator, as a founder, entrepreneur. So what is your advice for the next generation of founders? You've been one as well into building legal tech companies?
00:18:34 Andrew: I would say, for me, you have to have hands-on experience. Nothing beats hands-on experience. Nothing beats hands-on perspective that gives you unique insights that the big boys won't have, that gives you unique insights that competitors won't have. You need your own set of unique experiences. You have to have it.
00:18:51 Andrew: And then you have to be passionate about this. You have to like this. I'm in it to help people. You have to have that foundation because if you don't have that foundation, whenever you have tough times, it's hard to pull through. So that's my feedback.
00:19:03 Gaby: Yeah, domain expertise and endurance. So I love it. So we talked a little bit about AI, Andrew. So what other trends did you see shaping the future of legal tech? And where does OpenLaw will fit into this future?
00:19:23 Andrew: So AI is huge. And also, we're seeing a mass adoption in court-allowing virtual hearings, virtual settings, which expands the pool of attorneys. The trend that I'm seeing is lawyers are realizing, hey, working at a firm, it's not the best deal for me.
00:19:40 Andrew: I'm getting paid all this money, but I have to work like a dog. I have to work tirelessly. I have to earn three times what I make in order to keep my job. And now these tools are available to the legal industry will allow lawyer by themselves to have their own practice, but also to control their work-life balance, to enjoy life.
00:19:59 Andrew: Not only can they enjoy being a lawyer, they can also have a family. And I'm excited for that because what I'm seeing is gonna be a decentralization of the legal industry and we'll be in the forefront of that.
00:20:09 Gaby: I love that because I just released a legal market study and pretty much 40% of the revenue generated is concentrated in the 1% of the law firms. So still it's heavily indexed in big law.
00:20:26 Gaby: So I really like what you're saying, which is a little bit more of expansion on that less concentration of the revenue and innovation in this 1%, which is the top 1000 law firms in the United States. So I love that comment. And actually, you're seeing that firsthand in OpenLaw. It's also an enabler of this transformation. So incredible.
00:20:55 Gaby: So changing gears from OpenLaw and a little bit more to Andrew. So if you look back the past years as a founder, and of course, as an operator, you were pretty much like a founder working with these law firms, side to side with the lawyers, growing these 20X, 30X. So when you look back, what are the biggest lessons that you have learned when you look back?
00:21:20 Andrew: I would say one of the keys to us being here is as a founder, I was involved in every aspect of the company. I think they call it now founder mode. It wasn't nothing that I didn't have my two cents in because again, the goal is to make sure that I put out what I think is the best product based on my vision, based on what I'm trying to accomplish, which is to help people.
00:21:44 Andrew: Now, on the side note is once you start growing, then you start learning how to delegate. So now I'm learning to delegate more, bringing in more individuals that are competent in what they're doing. And I would say that's the part that now I am learning as a founder and I'm expanding on it.
00:22:01 Gaby: And this is so, so true. Those are the scaling and growing pains. Andrew, do you have any developing playbook? Because it's easier said than done. I'm gonna delegate to accelerate growth, but how do you do it?
00:22:17 Andrew: So ultimately, the playbook is there's people obviously been working with me for already a while. I know their skills. I know their strengths. I know their weaknesses. The playbook is to maximize their strengths and whatever I feel they're strong on, they're going to get those tasks, those responsibilities. And that's what we're distributing the actual work right now.
00:22:34 Andrew: And obviously we're focusing on the things that actually drive growth, that drive our milestones. And that's our one, two punch, making sure that whatever we're focusing on drives growth drives our milestone goals and making sure we are enabling the strength or the superpowers of the people that we have in our team.
00:22:49 Gaby: Amazing. And what keeps you up at night?
00:22:54 Andrew: I would say making sure that we effectively do what we set out to do. I really am passionate about what we're trying to build. I believe that we have the good motives. We have the skill sets. I just want to make sure we see it through.
00:23:09 Andrew: So what keeps me up at night is making sure we realize our vision of making OpenLaw the go-to solution to help people, and that we're judged by the number of people that we help that can help themselves.
00:23:19 Andrew: So I want to get to that goal as soon as possible because there's a lot of people in this country, even this world, that because of the lack of access to legal services, their life derails. And if I can contribute a little bit to realign their lives to their intended goal and purpose, I want to get there as soon as possible.
00:23:38 Gaby: I love that. So if you have the ability to change something today, compared to when you started OpenLaw, what would that be?
00:23:49 Andrew: Nothing, honestly, because I like to learn. Obviously, I see every experience that I have as a learning experience, and the goal is always be improving relentlessly. So with that mindset, I'm always about getting better, better, better, better every day, learning from the past. And I see any things that I would change as a learning experience that made me better today. So I just wanna keep learning.
00:24:09 Gaby: I love it. I love it. So as we wrap up the podcast, I would love to do a speed round. So I'll ask you something and it's a quick question. So what do you do for fun?
00:24:23 Andrew: Work? I'm boring. Horrible answer. I'm sorry.
00:24:29 Gaby: Right. And that's it? So anything other than working?
00:24:33 Andrew: I literally come up with ideas every like day. I'm always getting inspiration. I want to connect dots. I just love to create things. It's creating, creating, creating.
00:24:43 Gaby: That reminds me of my founder days. Yeah. I was so busy. Honestly, I didn't have time to develop big hobbies because I was so passionate about working on the business, growing the business, so I am with you on that one. So what book have you read, you're reading or podcasts that you enjoy?
00:25:07 Andrew: I would say the book that I read last is called The Surrender Experiment. It's a book by Michael Singer. Pretty much talks about how it's a spiritual book. I'm into spirituality and it talks about how as long as you are in the right mindset and the right vibration, you just push through life and good things will come to you.
00:25:24 Andrew: As long as you maintain a level-headed mindset and you accept what comes, be the best version of yourself. I subscribe to that mentality. And I think it's important as an entrepreneur to accept what comes so you can deal with it the best way you can.
00:25:37 Gaby: Lovely. And what is your favorite productivity hack?
00:25:42 Andrew: Meditation, being present. I'm grounded in my presence. Without that, I'm useless.
00:25:49 Gaby: That's a way to wrap up the podcast. So where can the listeners find you?
00:25:55 Andrew: They can find me obviously on LinkedIn. They can find me on X and yeah, those two places.
00:26:00 Gaby: Good. And we will make sure that we put the LinkedIn profile on the podcast. Thank you so much, Andrew. You are an inspiration, big fan of yours. And cannot wait to see your thriving and continued success.
00:26:18 Andrew: Goes both ways. I'm a fan of yours too. You've done a lot of amazing things as well.
00:26:23 Gaby: Thank you.
00:26:25 Scott Hartley: Thanks for joining us and hope you enjoyed today's episode. For those of you listening, you might also be interested to learn more about Everywhere. We're a first-check pre-seed fund that does exactly that, invests everywhere. We're a community of 500 founders and operators, and we've invested in over 250 companies around the globe. Find us at our website, everywhere.vc, on LinkedIn, and through our regular founder spotlights on Substack. Be sure to subscribe, and we'll catch you on the next episode.